Stop Shoulding All Over Yourself
We all deserve a life of joy and fulfillment, but for many of us that joy feels elusive. We've checked off all the boxes and done all the the things that the blueprint of life says should make us happy, and yet - no joy. Turns out, being happy isn't about following society's blueprint, but about creating our own blueprint for what we want out of our lives and taking action to make that happen. For us to embrace that opportunity, we first have to let go of other people prescriptions for our life choices, and build trust in our own inner compasses. That journey was hard and long for me, but it doesn't have to be. Join me as we explore and build an exciting future based on what YOU want, and how YOU feel inside, unlock a life of joy and fulfillment, and release yourself of the guilt of not enough.
Stop Shoulding All Over Yourself
The Hidden Power of Quitting Courageously with Goli Kalkhoran
In this episode, I engage in a deep conversation with Goli Kalkaran about the hidden power of quitting courageously. We explore how societal conditioning shapes our views on quitting, the journey from shame to empowerment, and the importance of reframing quitting as an opportunity for growth. Together, we discuss the stories we tell ourselves, the difference between clean and dirty pain, and the necessity of getting comfortable with discomfort during transitions.
We also delve into self-compassion and the challenges of knowing when to quit versus when to stay in a job. Goli shares her perspective on the importance of personal responsibility in the workplace, emphasizing the need for individuals to manage their own mindset and set boundaries. Challenging traditional notions of work as a family and the pressure to find a singular passion, Goli advocates instead for a more transactional view of employment.
During the episode, she introduces her Quitter Club membership, a program designed to help individuals navigate their career paths and personal growth. We also touch on the roles of therapy and coaching, recognizing that different tools are necessary for different people and situations.
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🎵 Thank you to Karacter for allowing me to use Telepathy (2005) in my intro.
This is one of my favorite albums of all time.
👉 Check it out: https://karacter.bandcamp.com/album/karacter
Hello and welcome to the Stop Shitting All Over Yourself podcast, episode 93 with me, your host, Manesa Konake. And today I am so excited to introduce to you Goli Kalkaran, who is amazing, amazing host of the podcast Lessons from a Quitter. She has the most incredible camera and setup you've ever seen. Like I should go out on the camera. was like, holy shit. like lessons taken from you. But what I really, really love about Goli, which is, we had a conversation about this extensively is the hidden power of quitting courageously. Her podcast is called Lessons from a Quitter and what she really talks about in a very deep and meaningful way is how do you know when it's time for you to quit, move on, do something different, stop doing something and start something else? And how do know when you're just running away from something, right? How do you know if this is an unhealthy coping mechanism? She also focuses a lot on quitting and ending things to be able to create space in your life for other opportunities and other things. Because one of the challenges I think that exists in our society today is that we were conditioned and socialized into believing that you get a job and you do that job for the rest of your life. And this was the case for many of us who grew up in the 80s and the 90s. The world is very different now. we have realized that we don't want to do the same thing all the time and that sometimes environments that we are working in are unhealthy for us, they're unsafe for us, but we stay because of either some misguided sense of loyalty or a fear of what possibilities, know, what the negative consequences might be, the stories that we're told growing up, my God, you can't be a job hopper. Like there's so many things that we are conditioned into in our society that make it hard for us to make actually fair decisions for ourselves, right? Because we make so many of our decisions based off of our responsibilities to other people and or based off of the stories that we have been conditioned into. And so her approach is very much about how do we navigate some of these ideas and reframe our perspective on quitting to becoming about opportunity and not about giving up, which is the story that we've been told so far. And the truth is we can rewrite that story because all stories are made up. This is a story that's made up and Goli is going to help us do that. Listen into our conversation and let's see what it springs up. And she so she. OK, so here's let me tell you why I love it, because I mean, there's many reasons to love you. Let me tell you why it is that was so interested. I I a lot. Almost everything that you talk about is stuff that I believe like so much in my core. you know, I've sort of like gone through this same process, but I. I realized about. three years ago that I'm actually, always thought I was the person who would be the one to help people. And then I realized I'm actually not that person. I'm the connector. I connect people to the people who help them. And one of the biggest lessons that I think, you know, I've struggled with in people that, and especially in the industry that I come from. I've done a lot of different things, but right now what I do to make money is I'm a research administrator working with hospitals and biotech and pharma to manage grant funds. It's a giant industry. that where the people in it are being, because the veterans are aging out and we're having trouble getting new blood coming in. And so it's really challenging for people in these high activity industry, especially academia and health care, to understand where the line is for healthy work versus not healthy work. so, you know, I actually, the thing I really, that hit me, the very first thing I wanted to really ask you about was this idea that we have been conditioned, and I'm like feeling myself tearing up even talking about it, our whole lives that quitting makes you a failure. You're bad. This is wrong. Like, it's not just not doing something. There is a judgment on your humanity. Can you share a little bit about like, the journey that you had to go on to like go from that belief to like where you ended up? Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think that for me, I was like, you know, a lot of people that sort of, it was brought up in our school system where you're just told to kind of follow this path and put your head down and do these things and get as close to an A plus as you can and memorize and there's no like really room for anything else. And all of success, if you look in our society, truly the markers of success tend to be. Longevity, like whether, you know, like a successful marriage is how long you're married. It doesn't matter if you're miserable the whole time and you guys are abusive to each other. Like if you're married 20 years, then that's a successful marriage, right? Same thing with careers. Like a lot of what we are taught is you pick a path when you're a child, basically, when you're like 18, whatever, you go to college, you know, you're still, your frontal lobe hasn't fully developed, but just pick something and then stick with it for the rest of your life. And like, that's going to be your career and you're going to, you know, and this was obviously the way that it used to be. It's now changed a lot, but I did that. was lucky enough that school was easy for me and so I did well in school. Especially when I think, if you are a type of personality, if you are someone that has success within that structure and that system, it's easy to not ask any questions. It's easy to be like, I'm going to get my pad on the head. I'm doing it right. I'm just going to keep doing it. I became a lawyer and I became successful at that. It wasn't until you did all the things where you thought, okay, I'm going to keep checking these boxes. boxes and then I'm going to become successful and happy and then you become quote unquote successful but you're not happy and I was like you know I got there and I was like what is it like this is not what I want to do for the rest of my life you know it like the first time that I sort of looked up and was like wait how did I get here why do I want to do this and and I think that for me I mean it was a very long journey of like getting to where I you know where I am now but that quitting part of it was like there was so much shame there was so much baggage of this word of like being a failure of not being able to cut it, you know, all these like things that we've kind of, we have these phrases of like, winners never quit and quitters never win or whatever bullshit we've all been fed. Right. And I think like for so many of us, I'd internalize that, that like, no, you have to suck it up. You know, life isn't, work's not supposed to be fun. You're an adult and just like do what you're supposed to do and be successful and show this facade to people that you are, you you're making money and you have the white picket fence and you're doing all that. And I just really got to a point where I was like, I can't do this. And I think it was a real like identity crisis for me because I'd always only ever been on the path to being a lawyer or becoming a lawyer or working as a lawyer. And so it really had to be like, well, if I'm not a lawyer, then what am I? If I'm not the person that was like the straight A student, what am I? If I'm not constantly achieving and successful, quote unquote, what am I? And so. I really had to like grapple with this idea of what does it mean about me if I quit? What do I want to make it mean about me? And that has obviously led to a really beautiful thing for me because I really just wanted to redefine that word. And I really was thinking about like how absurd it is because we're always quitting things and you have to quit things as you grow and learn and discover who you are and change and stuff. And so I really just kind of went on this journey and started my own brand and, you know, podcasts. I mean, at the time I wasn't trying to start a brand. I just started a podcast called Lessons from a Quitter because I wanted to start changing this connotation because so many people I would look around like I left, but so many of my friends who are lawyers, who are miserable, who are like anti-depressants and anti-anxiety and having panic attacks and like working 80 hours a week and not seeing their kids and hating their lives. And I was so irate that more people weren't just like leaving and doing something else and being like, hey, this isn't for me. And so, yeah, that's the long winded story of like where I started and where I ended up. love that story. You know, I got to ask you though, there's that moment. So I actually had this question, but you dovetailed right into it on your own. was the you check all the boxes, right? The one we were like, and I remember checking all the boxes and I had all the things I had all the money, like all the money. And I was like, I hate my life. I hate myself. I hate everything. And I felt in that moment like the rug had been pulled out from under me. Like I was just like, what do I, what the hell am I supposed to do now? Yeah. Totally. And so, you know, I want to actually go to a different, you mentioned something, you talked about the story, all the bullshit stories we've been fed, right? And you, this is a, and for those of you who are listening to this later on Goldie's page, there's a link for this where you talk specifically about this, the stories that you tell her, we tell ourselves. So can you, one of my biggest, and my sister and I talk about this a lot, is that things happen, whatever that thing is, and then you write a story about it. And sometimes you put pages in before you even realize that none of it is real. Well, you literally just created all this. So I'm curious to know, what moment where you realized, shit, I'm just telling myself a story. And like, how did you feel in that moment? Like, were you like, God, like, did it make you angry? you like, Yeah. I mean, you know what's funny about that is I don't think that that... I don't think that that ever ends. What's funny is like, I still tell myself stories, right? Like it's not as though I've become now this enlightened being that like I can fully see things as just neutral. I think that what I realized when I started learning was like, my brain is constantly doing this. get some, like something is happening in the world. Something happens to me and instantly I go back to these rehearsed stories that I've had about myself. And it's so funny when I, the more I do this work, the more I learn about this stuff, the more I learn about the brain, the more I teach on this stuff, the more I see like, how much of our identity is, how much of our personality is quote unquote that we think is our personality is just the story that we've told about ourselves that's not actually true, right? It's like, it's just this thing that has come from like childhood. And so I'll give you like one example that I share a lot in my community is I am somebody who, know, for better or worse, I've never had like a ton of energy. I've never been the person that's like gets up and wants to hit the ground running and is constantly wanting to be active and wants to be outdoors. I'm just not that person. I'm the person that likes to nap. I like to be on a couch. Like if I have a choice between doing something and doing nothing, I'm always gonna choose nothing. Like I just want to like do as little as possible. so- I love you, I knew I love you. Yeah, we were kindred serious. Because of that though, I had this very deep story that like I'm a lazy person. I'm a lazy person. And I would repeat that story my whole life. It was like, and my whole family was in on this story. And it was like this whole joke. And it still is a joke in my family about how lazy I am and whatnot. And I realized when you're saying this like, I, one of the things that I've had to do over this journey of really like learning about who I am is I realized how much evidence I had to ignore to keep up this story that I'm lazy, right? Like I had to ignore everything I had accomplished, everything I had done, everything I was doing every day to keep telling myself like, no, I'm lazy. I can't do that. I'm too lazy. I can't, you know, like I would. I would ignore the fact that I was a straight A student and that I got into a top 10 law school and I went to law school and I graduated law school and I worked as a whatever, but I'm a really lazy person. And I say that to say like, my personality had become that. I was like, I'm just this lazy person that doesn't have the energy to do. when I started questioning, was like, why am I making this story about myself? Why am I creating this when there, yes, there's times where I like to rest and there's like, I like love resting, but I also clearly get things done. I also clearly have the capacity to do the things I need to do. And I just say this like, It's not to say that I've completely upended all the stories I created about myself. Like it still happens all the time where it's like you get, you know, a rejection letter from somewhere. Like I'll apply. Let's say I want to get on a podcast or something. And then they say, no, thank you. Of course, immediately my story is like, they hate me. I'm not good enough. You know, I don't, it's like, we all go there where it's like, no, they could have just like, they didn't even read your stuff or it was some intern that didn't want to like have you on the show or they're already full for the year or whatever. Like it could be a million other reasons. but we go to like, it must be that I'm not good enough, that I'm not smart enough, that they don't like me or whatnot. And so I think for me, when I started doing this work, there was a lot of different stories. Like I kept thinking, well, when I first started realizing, I can think about this in a different way. I don't have to think about it like this. Like I could think that me quitting means that I'm a failure and that I couldn't hack it as a lawyer, or I could think that like, this is me taking control of my own life and deciding what I want to do for my life, you know, or like deciding I would, and like, I get to tell whatever story I want there. And the story that I choose to tell greatly impacts how I, you know, feel in my life and how I move through my life. And so I didn't remember more. It was just, it wasn't, it was more that realization that shocked me more than anything. I remember learning that and being like, wait a second, I can just think whatever I want. I can change the story and think another story. Like, Why has no one ever told me this before? This is so great, you know? my God, you know what's funny about that is I said, I remember thinking that too, it's like, why hasn't anybody told me this before? And so I grew up in Karachi and we had like a family, it was like a three story house with like a whole bunch of family members in there, right? Yeah. So the aunts and the uncles and the grandparents and everybody lives there. So everybody was always saying words are important, the words you say are important. And when I realized this, I think I was 44, maybe 43, so I'm 47 now. And I said, why didn't anybody tell me this? And I was like, shit, they did. They all, my dad, my daddy, my, everybody was trying to tell me this my whole life. But I, but I think the, the next step on that is that you have to be ready to hear, right? Like there's a receptor that has to be ready to sort of receive the information. Totally. Yeah. I mean, that's why there's that, you know, the quote, like when the student is ready, the master will appear. It's like, if you're not ready to take it in. you don't see it and it's there. It's all over the place. But it's like until you get to that place and for each of us it's different life events or whatever. And it's always these like moments of reckoning or these enlightenment and it's beautiful. But even now like I'm like I know there's so much probably that I'm missing because I'm not ready to hear it yet. And in a year, two years, five years I'm like my gosh why didn't I know this earlier? I totally agree. And going back to that one you were saying earlier about laziness. I'm curious have you read the book Laziness Does Not Exist by Devin Price? Yes. So good. Right. So good. Love it. So when you said that it actually made me talked about, like rest. And there's something I've been thinking a lot about. There's a, follow the nap ministry who talks a lot about, know, Yeah. as resistance. And this idea that the constantly be doing, doing, doing, doing, doing is a colonial capitalist idea that we've internalized within ourselves. Totally. and It's I think it's been very freeing, you know, on on one hand, there's that frustration where you realize, my God, I've been telling myself these stories my whole life and almost like I wish I had remembered, known this earlier so I could. But on the other hand, it's that you realize I can create what I can co-create my world. Like, I just need to say the words. Right. And it almost seems like I mean, that sounds like it's almost too simple, but it kind of is that. No, yeah, we have a way of overcomplicating things, but yeah, it is truly that simple. I do think the thing is that we have all been so programmed for so many years. so it's one thing to intellectually understand something, it's another thing to fully embody it or understand it. So I think, you know, I still realize like I fully subscribe to the Nat Ministry's ministry, right? And her explanation about what hustle culture and capitalism, we can all see it in this productivity culture that it has, and I can fully understand it. And still, we've all been so programmed with this idea that our worth is solely tied into our productivity. And so when we don't feel productive or when we feel lazy, we beat ourselves up or we think, I should have done more today or I didn't get enough done or I'm always behind all of these things. And so it's a constant struggle. It's just like, we can understand intellectually that the beauty industry has completely warped our ideas of what beauty should be and has created all these body image issues. And yet it's another thing to fully be accepting of your body, right? Like we can understand that those two things happen. And so I think for me, it's still a constant struggle, right? It's like, I get that, like I still want to rest and yet I know I still, there's times where I feel really guilty, like I shouldn't be laying all day. I should get up and do something or I should, know. And a lot of that is me working on those thoughts to like find acceptance of like, no, it's okay for me to take a day and not do this. It's okay for me not to get things done on the weekend. It's okay for me not to. And it's a constant thing. that's a lot of what I coach people on is because I think a lot of people see these things or hear them and they're like, yeah, totally. But then why do I still feel guilty or feel like crap when I do this? And I'm like, yeah, well, because you've been so programmed with these beliefs that you do have to practice these thoughts and you can. It is as easy as if I adopt this thought. But your brain has created that neural pathway back to like, I need to be productive. And so it's going to keep going back there. And you have to keep bringing it back to like, No, we're not doing that anymore. You're like, we're going to rest now. We're going to like listen to our body now. We're going to give ourselves this time now. You know, I think that's so important what you just said, because that is the crux of the problem. I think is the operationalization of these ideas is that we think that once we intellectually know it, then that kind of solves the problem exactly box. But really it's about when you're faced with these challenges every day, how do you respond? And every time you respond in alignment with whatever it is that you're, know, cause like you have to stop and say, I don't want to go down that road. I'm going to go down this road, but that takes effort. And I think that those were the moments for me where I would be willing to give up because I think to myself, it's not working. I know this thing, but it's not working. But that's not what it is. That's actually the muscle that you're kind of like, you know what it's like? It's like if you were going to work out, right? So if I'm working out like this, this is not how I work out. mean, if I worked out at all, but assuming this is how we did it. If I went then to try to lift a bed with this one hand and been like, I'm not lifting the bed. Clearly my weight lifting isn't working. Yeah. You know, and I think that there's a gentleness like, and I love that you said that you work with people on this because do how much do you feel that the almost collaborator in this conversation of judgment plays into it. like when somebody is trying to make these changes and that judging of themselves, how important do you think it is for us to release ourselves from judgment as we go through this process? A hundred. I mean, it's the most important thing. And I think it's one of the biggest things that stops most of us. And if we go back to like the same thing that we were talking about, even from the beginning like this, we're quitting or whatnot. think for so many of us, we're just raised in this society that demands perfection. And for so many people, the idea of quote unquote failing is so horrific that like we won't even try new things because we don't want to fail. And so we have this idea is like as soon as I do something, I should be able to do it perfectly. I should be able to do it, you know, expert level. I should get it. Right. And so we get so it's not even just the failing. It's then the judgment of like, what I'm just not good enough at this or I'm doing this wrong or I'm, know, and really like understanding that with anything that you do, it's going to be a bunch of like fail, fail, fail, fail until you succeed at it you, you you learn and you keep doing it. And like you said, I mean, I use the analogy all the time about working out. It's like, you can read, you can learn very easily how to get a six pack. It doesn't mean you go one time to the gym and you're going to have a six pack. means like you have to build those muscles like over and over and over and over again until you get, you build up these muscles and you build up the strength. It's the same thing with mindset work, with mental health stuff. It's like, it's a muscle that you haven't really utilize. like if you're not used to self-compassion and if you're used to constant if that inner critic in your mind is so mean and it's constantly judging you and constantly tearing you down, you might want to be compassionate and you're going to try that and it's going to feel weird. It's going to feel bad. It's going to feel like lifting a weight for the first time. It's heavy and it doesn't feel good and it's awkward and you're like, I'm not doing this right and nothing is even happening, you know, and so and you have to keep doing it over and over and over again until you start replacing that other voice until you like build that muscle of like, yeah, we're not going to shame ourselves, you know? And so I think that getting rid of the judgment is the only way to allow yourself the kind of self-compassion to keep trying. Because if you're constantly like, I should have gotten it by now. Why am I not getting it? There's something wrong with me. You immediately want to give up because it feels terrible to feel that kind of shame, right? That self-shame. So it's like, OK, this doesn't work. I'm just going to quit. Instead of like, No, this is working. This is the way it's supposed to work. I'm going to keep feeling terrible doing this until I get to the point where I can actually implement it. Which dovetails brilliantly into another article that you have on your website. It's literally it's almost as if you're guiding the whole thing where you talk about because I remember realizing this too and I'm in this very moment. I'm going through like a big change in my life, right? And so I have that feeling of discomfort as you go through it. You know, because we go through these every so often where you're like big changes, right? I'm very uncomfortable. just going to tell you right now. I'm so uncomfortable in general. you talk about this. So can you look at, look at this guys. I'm going to get coaching right now. got this is my secret weapon. tell me a little, so let's talk a little bit about that. Like when you're having those moments and you're making those changes, it's really uncomfortable. And you talk about in your article, getting comfortable with being uncomfortable. Tell me more about that. Yeah. So I think that what a lot of us, this goes back to like everything we were talking about with the story and that we create about ourselves. There's a concept in psychology that is called like clean pain versus dirty pain. And so clean pain is like, let's say, you know, someone breaks up with me, I'm going to be sad. That's a clean pain. Like you should feel sadness. You should, let's say you feel disappointment. It didn't work out. Maybe you're feeling some grief, whatnot. that's fine. You should process those. Like we don't want to be toxically positive. We don't want to always be like super excited about everything. Like we're not happy when someone breaks up with us. That's okay. What happens with a lot of us is that we add on a lot of dirty pain, which is the stories that we were talking about, right? So the stories of like, I'm not good enough. No one's ever going to love me. I'm never going to find anybody. You know, and we create so much more shame and blame and like, I can't believe he did this and he's an asshole and I'm terrible and whatever. And we create so much more negative emotion as opposed to like, can I just sit with the sadness and the grief? of the fact that this relationship is over, you know? Going back to the comfort, discomfort thing, I think what happens a lot of times is whenever you're going through any kind of transition or if you're ever going for anything that's outside of like what your wheelhouse is, let's say you're going for a new job, you have a new goal, by definition, if you're pushing out of your own comfort zone, you're gonna be uncomfortable, right? You're gonna go into the discomfort zone, like you're leaving the comfort zone, right? So you're gonna be uncomfortable. But what happens is for a lot of us, have that instead of just feeling that discomfort, like of course I'm gonna be uncomfortable when I'm trying to start a business or I'm gonna quit my job and change my identity, whatnot. Instead of just that, we add on a lot of dirty pain to it. So we add on a lot of like, this shouldn't be happening. Like we panic about it, like, my God, this is too uncomfortable. Maybe I shouldn't have this much fear. Maybe this means I shouldn't do it. I should just quit now. And so we create this panic, right? And a lot of what I was talking about in that article on my podcast is like, you have to expect it. Of course I'm going to be uncomfortable. Of course I'm going to be scared. Of course I'm going to feel uncertain, right? I'm doing something new that I've never done. Of course I'm going to fail at it. Of course I'm going to try things and it's not going to work. And when I expect that, when like that's not a problem, that's literally the path to where I want to go. Like I have to go through these and I expect it and I don't make it mean anything about me. It doesn't mean that I'm not good enough. It doesn't mean I'm doing it wrong. It doesn't mean that... It's never gonna work. doesn't mean all these other stories. If I just like feel the fear and be like, and do it anyway, right? One of my friends who's a life coach has, she always says gag and go. Like I'm gonna feel like I'm gonna gag. Like I'm gonna feel like I'm gonna throw up and I'm still gonna do it anyways. You know, like you're just gonna, you're gonna have to feel that discomfort and do it anyway. I think when you, when you can really get used to that and not be like surprised that that discomfort is there. The discomfort's not that bad. The feeling of fear is not that, it doesn't hurt that much. You're just like, it's there. think the reason we give up is we just panic that it shouldn't be here. I should know more. I should feel more certain. I should feel more confident. And it's like, no, you shouldn't because you're doing something new. You're going to feel not that confident. You're going to feel doubtful. It's going to feel wonky and you don't have any legs to stand on. That's the way it should feel. And everything is OK. And I feel like when you can calm your brain down, we're all right. We're doing something big. It's gonna feel like crap. It's okay. We could still do this It makes it so much easier to just like feel that discomfort and not let it stop you It's true. It's it's very true. And yeah as you were talking I was thinking of you know, because we've all you know It's funny as we forget that we could by the way, I need to know the name of your friend who says yeah Olivia Bacro Okay, she is on that she coaches lawyers. She's called the less stressed lawyer. I how awesome I just I love this. So no, think I you know, if you don't feel like you're gonna throw up your dream isn't big enough. Like the thing you're going after is not big enough. Like it shouldn't be a reason not to do it. should be like a telltale sign like the thing I'm doing is pushing me to grow enough to make me want to vomit right now. And that's okay. Like I feel like if you can reinterpret those signs in your body, like I think a lot of times again, if you do not panic about it, but just be like, yeah, I'm going after big things and that's scary and that's okay. I can be scared and do it. I think that panic thing is like really hitting the nail on the head because I've heard it said, I've heard people talk about many different things, but I've never heard anybody say that you're doing something and you just panic and you become like a deer in headlights and you just go in your fight flight or freeze. Totally. okay. So let me ask you this question then, right? Cause like, In an industry that, you know, because many industries are seeing this happen right now, there's a lot of people leaving and I'm not entirely sure leadership has figured out where the problem really lies, which is fine. You know, they'll figure it out eventually. But so let's say somebody's in an organization and they are feeling like, well, let me ask you this first. How do you know if it's like time to quit versus like, you know, cause like in some cases, wherever you go there you are like you are the problem and you need to work on your stuff. So I'm curious to know like how do you figure that part out or is that like do you have to actually trial and error it to figure that out? How I work with people in my membership, I'm glad that you brought that up because a lot of people I don't think realize this and like one of the first things I do with people, like a lot of people come to me because they're really unhappy in their careers, they're really miserable and they want to quit and one of the things I try to slow us down with is The solution really never is to just jump from job to job because you're just gonna keep hoping that something outside of you is gonna like magically fix it. And the reality is, that anywhere you go, that you're gonna encounter things that are gonna cause stress and anxiety or whatnot. Like either it's gonna be a boss, it's gonna be coworkers, it's gonna be clients, it's gonna be the demands, it's gonna be deadlines, it's gonna be, there's nowhere where you're gonna be like, everything is just perfect. I love everyone I work with. Everybody has a personality that matches mine. I mean, like that's just not a possibility really anywhere. And so a lot of what we do is first slow down to figure out like what you said, like what am I bringing to the table that's causing this? Like for a lot of us, we're people pleasers, so we never speak up and then we become resentful and angry and we keep taking things on and then we wonder why we're miserable. Like a lot of us are perfectionists where we have to be perfect, we go above and beyond as soon as, know, whatever the task is, like we don't ask for help, we wanna like be the star employee, we're used to being like the A plus student. A lot of us are overachievers, right? A lot of us are like this hustle culture. We constantly feel guilt like we want to take on more. We're constantly telling ourselves we're going to get fired if we don't do 110%. And so if you have those tendencies, it doesn't matter where you go. Like everywhere you go, there you are. You're bringing that same brain with you to the next place. And you're hoping that someone else is going to put boundaries for you. You're hoping that like your boss just magically gives you just enough work so you're not too stressed, right? Like that doesn't work because your boss is busy doing his or her own thing, right? They don't know how much you have on your plate. They're going to keep dumping things. If you keep taking it, they're going to delegate more. And so a lot of what this work is, is really like figuring out how do I show up and how do I want to show up? How do I set boundaries? How do I speak up even when it's scary? How do I advocate for the things that I want? How do I stop feeling guilty about saying no and like closing my laptop at six o'clock and not checking emails? Like that's sort of the core work that you have to do before you even really realize like Is it the job or is it me, right? Can I get like a real sense of like whether, you know, I need to work on my own kind of thoughts. The next, going back to like, you know, there is no like scientific, like this is when it's right time to quit. For every person, it's gonna be different. And some people like can't because like financially I can't afford to leave right now or whatnot. And so a lot of what I work with with people is like, everything we've been talking about is like, how do I manage my own mind? in this place, right? And how do I decide for myself when it's time to leave, right? When is it time for me? may not be, there's no perfect time. Maybe it's not the right time, but for a lot of people, it's like, you know what? I'm just choosing that this is the right time or I don't want to be around these people or whatnot. But for a lot of other people, it's more of like, how do I not, you know, I think I see so many of my clients where a lot of what I coach on, like, it's like, that's not even a problem for you to let's say, worry about like, They're like, they're so inefficient. They do this in such an inefficient way. I'm like, why are you getting mad about it? It's not your business. Like, is it your bottle? Let them do it inefficiently, you know? And like, we work a lot on like all of these things that we do to keep get ourselves so upset about why did my manager do this? And why did he say it like that? And why is she acting like it's like if we can just give everyone back their stuff and we worry about ourselves and we worry about what we're coming to work to do and what we're not and stuff. It can make corporate America, I'm not saying it's gonna be like your favorite place. It doesn't have to be, right? Your job can just literally be the investor in your life. Like I'm gonna make money here. It gives me a paycheck. That's all I need to worry about until I'm ready to leave, right? And so I work with lot of on managing their own mind, whether they, and that in and of itself is what helps you determine is it time to leave, is it not? Because I just decide, because I want something new, not because I have to leave, because I have to get away from these people or I have to like, you know, it's more of like, I work with a lot of people that are like, you know what, now I know I could stay, but I just choose to leave because I want something better. I want to try something new. And it's such a different place than from this place of like panic where it's like, I have to leave or I'm going to die here. Or it's like, you know, I have to take the next job because I just can't stand it. What we work on is like really just learning how to manage your mind so you don't have to get to that point. I think that's a really key thing is because I think a lot of us move. We'll stay in a place where it pushes us to the edge and like we spontaneously combust and just like I'm out. And you know, and sometimes that is sometimes that's what's gotta happen. other but but it's not ideal for sure. I want to actually come back to something that you said there, which is this is a philosophy. It's I want to deconstruct this a little bit because we are conditioned into this really heavily. You said the company that I work with is an investor in me. They're paying my money and you know, pay my bill now. You know, the stories that we've all been told, work is like family. You have to really love, you know, there's like these, lot of stuff in there. And what I've come to realize over the last 10 years or so is that that's a really exploitative idea that really only helps one, that helps the company mostly. And we are not, and you may be able to have a healthy relationship that way if the person, like the employee is informed and understands. But for the most part, we feel like it's a feeling within us if we do not have this deep passion for our job or we're not, it's not like family or we're not willing to sacrifice or so on. So can you talk a little bit about how you, that section of it? Sure. Yeah. think that, I mean, we just have, corporate America has done a wonderful job of like really getting us to feel this level of guilt that we should have towards people. And I'm one of the first things I really remind people is like, it is a transactional relationship. I do something for something, right? This isn't like family where it's an unconditional love or whatever. It's like, you pay me to do these tasks and only these tasks. they do try to take advantage where it's like, I hire you to do these tasks and then I throw all these other tasks and we just keep taking it on as opposed to like, okay, but are you gonna pay me more? What happened with this? This is what I was hired for. And I feel like the more we realize it isn't a family and we know that because they'll fire you as soon as they need to, right? There's no loyalty kind of the other way. But I think like when we kind of go back to that and understand that and know that that's okay. And then I think the other thing that you were mentioning that's really big in our culture and it's, it's almost, it's also very big in this culture in like Western, I think culture in America, there's this idea that every, you you have this one passion or you have to find this fulfillment in the work that you do. And a lot of that comes with this idea that like, Each and okay, this is gonna say we are all are extremely unique and extraordinary I don't mean to say like every person is special and I truly believe that and we all have different gifts and stuff but I think we have this like Almost saviorism where it's like I have to save the world somehow I have to do something that's so big and so grand So I I will constantly coach people where they're like, I just feel like I should be doing more I should be doing bigger things. I should be doing you know, I should have this one passion I should be and it's to say that that's not like something that you can go after. I find that so many people, even when they're doing really great things that they love, they're constantly beating themselves up because it should be more, it should be bigger, it should be, you know, this like, we have these like 30 under 30 and these like, you know, things where we try to create these like underdog stories and the person goes on to make billions of dollars and we all have these ideas of like this, I need to go after like some huge thing. And I don't know, I just have really... Embrace the idea of like none of that is ever necessary like where you know, there's no need to be a savior to all people There's no need to do stuff. That's going to change the world There's no need like that It's so much pressure on one person and I feel like for so many of us even if we really slow down It's like if you could change the couple of people in your life, know around you's life if you can give them more attention if you can be more present in your community the ripple effect that our world would be so much bigger than trying to you know, create some startup or whatever that is gonna change the world. And I think when you go into, it's not to say that you can't try to find something that's more aligned with you, something that you enjoy doing. But I think that we have this idea that we should love what we do every day and we should have such a big passion for it. And as if like there's one passion that we need to go discover. And the reality is, is most of us, All humans are very multifaceted. can develop passions for a lot of things. You can love learning about a lot of things. And it never has to be the end all be all. It does not have to be the thing that fulfills your whole life. It never will be, truly. If you know I teach a lot in my group is that everything is 50-50. No matter what, it doesn't matter how great it becomes. There's always 50 % good, 50 % bad. And so we think I'm gonna find this thing and every day is gonna be rainbows and butterflies. Every day I'm gonna feel so excited to do the stuff I wanna do. But it never works like that because even if you're doing, let's say the painting that you love to do, there's going to be 50 % of stuff around that business you don't want to do. And that's okay. It's just that when your expectation was, I'm going to be happy 100 % of the time and you're not happy 100 % of the time, you start realizing like, you think like, I'll never be happy. There's something wrong with me. And I feel like when you change your expectation, it becomes so much easier to be like, yeah, of course I like, this is fun to do. And I have other passions and I want to do stuff outside of this. And this just fulfills my you know, the financial need I have so that I don't, there is no requirement that I have to love every single day of my life. So first of all, I feel like you said all those things directly for me and we just recorded a coaching session. So I just want to thank you for how that was just really, really awesome. Honestly, I'm having to hold back lots of tears right now. There's some serious growth that's happened just now. Thank you. But I think something else on the other side, let me come back to that. Cause You know, something I started to, and it resonated with me in that, you know, a long time ago, I realized that, you know, my sister said to me that you make a difference in people's, like your individual people's lives, like your kids, your family, your friends, like people who you've chosen to keep around you, your community, that kind of thing. And that when you change their world, like that's a giant world that you're changing. And I think that it made me start to think about my life differently. And then instead of thinking about my life in terms of how can I be successful, I started to think about how can I be, what do I want my life to look like on a day-to-day basis like right now? Like when I wake up in morning, what do want to do? Right? then like cultivating the activities that will both allow me to sustain that in the future. But like that required a giant divorce, as you said earlier, you know, going back full circle from the stories that we were fed. Because like, you know, you and I and other people like us have already made this decision and we're still, it's like it's a daily practice because you know, the system of the world keeps you, keeps telling that story. So I'd actually like to ask, because you mentioned your membership a couple of times and I want to actually dive. a little bit deeper into your membership. So I want to learn a little bit more about that because I think this is, this is the, that's where the rubber hits the road for a lot of people. if, so let's say, so what happens in your membership? somebody finds you and they're like, I, either they're ready to quit and I'm, they're coming to you they're desperate and they're like, I'm going to quit. And you have that different conversation with them or they're like, something isn't right. And I feel like I found you for a reason and I want to learn. So what happens once they join your membership? And yeah, and it's actually both. You know, I have a very wide range of people. So there's some people that are like, I need to quit now. And there's some people that like, I just know something's wrong. And I don't even know if I want to quit, but I want to do something different. the membership is, know, going back to the kind of analogy of a gym, like I liken it to kind of a gym for your mind, because it's something that you're, it's like a practice. Like I really, the reason I went with the membership model is because it's not something that's like, you're just going to learn this thing in three months, and then you're going to have to a happy career. Like it doesn't work that way. It's really like, what I teach people is how to manage their mind. when you learn how to manage your mind, it becomes so much easier to decide what you want to do. Are you gonna stay in this career? Are you gonna leave? Are you gonna go after that secret dream that you haven't told anybody about? Are you gonna just, like you said, kind of slow down and enjoy where you're at right now and not try to save the world and really just love being with your kids, let's say, or whatnot. And for every person, it's different. how it works in the membership is I have basically a roadmap. It's four stages. And each stage has videos and worksheets that walk you through. The first stage is learning how to manage your mind, it's the tools for the mindset stuff. The second stage is learning how to get out of burnout and love where you're at. And so we talked about learning how you're showing up, the people pleasing, the boundaries, all of that. Stage three is figuring out what you want in your life, because I think for so many people, the reason they feel so stuck is because they have no idea what they want to do. And that's because we've spent so long doing what everybody else told us we should do, or what they think we should do, or what is successful. And so it really requires peeling back, like who am I and what do I want for this one life? What do I want to experience, right? Not just in work, but just in my life. And then stage four is like, how do we actually go after it? How do we create the plans? How do we experiment? How do we figure out what the career is gonna be before we make a jump? And so those are all there for you to use at your own kind of pace, whichever stage you're in, doing that work. And then I think the main value of the club, it's called the Quitter Club, is we do weekly coaching calls. So it's either one or two times a week where we coach so that you can practice this thought work that I teach, the thought work that will help you manage your mind and your thoughts and these stories around what you're doing to help you really reduce the stress and anxiety and frustration and overwhelm and confusion and stuckness that everybody feels in their lives so that they can figure out what it is they want to do and start creating that. And so we have an online, we have a community where we all post and you can get coaching, but there's these these live calls that you can come to and it's like, just talk about, this is what's happening. I'm really frustrated because at work this is happening and this is how I feel and then I coach you through it to kind of figure out how you want to show up, what is it that you want to do. And then we have a bunch of other stuff. We have a private podcast where you can listen to the coaching calls kind of on the go. We have master classes. We have these 90 day workshops where we set goals for 90 days and accountability partners, all that stuff. But really the crux of it, the point of the whole membership, is for people who are like, this can't be it. Like this isn't my life. I cannot spend my life hating Monday, living for the weekend, feeling anxiety every Sunday. Like there has to be something different and I promise you there is. And it's really like learning how do I unlearn a lot of what we've talked about. The stories, the need to hustle, the like not ever resting, the people pleasing, the perfectionism. How do I stop all that so that I can actually start doing the things I want to do so I can actually rest, so I can find joy, so I can enjoy being here instead of like Once I get there, once I get the degree, once I get this new job, once I make this much money, then I can be happy. It's like, how do we start doing that now and start figuring out what you want to be doing for the rest of your life? You know, it's so I love what you said that because we've I think we've been conditioned to believe that we'll invest X, Y, Z until we until we can start our lives whenever that life is when that happens, right? And Lisa, who I had, but she has a very similar thing for people who are at retirement, who when they get to retirement age and they retire, nobody's taught them how to start the rest of your life, right? And so where none of us are given that muscle in terms of how do you... And so I think that one of the things that you're really hitting the nail on the head about specifically is this idea that... Actually, let pull back a little bit because you were as you were talking this what I thought to myself, I thought, you know, we were fed this story. Okay. And our parents were fed these stories. And I was talking to someone the other day who, you know, the, who was talking about how the each generation is responding to whatever circumstance it is that they had when they were growing up and then conditioning their children. So on, right now we're at a stage where we have this a hundred or 200 year. written knowledge where we're now we can see how all this unfolded, right? And I think when, you know, for me, when I started to understand that we are all conditioned to be a compliant workforce for a very specific reason. you know, and I, in my mind, I was like, I wanted someone to blame for this, right? And the truth is, is that every single person in the world is currently complicit in perpetuating ideas that we really did had no, we didn't even start these ideas. Somebody a hundred years ago started it. And the idea has just kept going and we have attached an idea of rightness to that's the way. then if so, then it becomes you guys lied to me who programmed me and, or I want to be right because that's a story I've had, you know, and I think that this is actually going to bring me. So part of the work that we've all had to do is deconstructing the need for blame. How has therapy played a part in this for you? Big part, but not in the way traditionally. think like I got my undergrad degree in psychology. I truly believe in, in therapy. I think therapy serves a really great purpose and I think a lot of the work I've done outside of, so my degree, I thought about being a therapist before I went to be a lawyer. And then afterwards now, like the last couple of years, the amount that I've dived into like mindset work and the brain and just how our brains work. I think there's, it is. hugely important because I think so many of us are really struggling with these deep feelings of sadness and depression and lostness and I think that therapy is a really beautiful way of like digging into that and really understanding how some of the traumas and the programming that we all kind of got as children has really played into why we are the way that we are and how we react and I think you can create a really great understanding for yourself like why are my reactions this way? am I you know as opposed because I think for most of us it's like We just blame ourselves. Like, why can't I just not get angry? But it's like, why do I get angry? Right? Where did this anger come from? And whatnot. I will say for me, look, one of the reasons I actually really leaned into coaching, and I think coaching really changed my life, for better or worse, I was blessed enough that I think just naturally, my natural disposition tends to be a little bit more on the positive side. And I think I didn't struggle so much with things that traditionally therapy helps with. So I went to therapy, but I felt like, Okay, I know where this comes from, but what do I do now? Like I didn't feel like I was getting a lot of tools. Like, okay, well how do I handle the anxiety that I'm getting right now because of what I'm gonna do? You know, we can talk about my childhood and where it came from, but I wanted more of like, well, what do I, you know, how do I turn this into like what I, you know, as a tool that can help me in my day to day life. And it's not to say that therapy, some therapies do that. It was for me, I felt like when I was there, I... I, therapy helps me with what I needed, but I was, there was an end point that I was like, okay, I'm not really knowing where to go from there. And so I think with coaching, what it helps me with, and somebody, there was a therapist once that I had on my podcast who explained it, cause he did therapy and coaching, and he would say like, therapy helps people, he would help people go from bad to good, and coaching helped them go from good to great. And I felt like that was sort of where, I like a lot of the concepts, kind of the ideas of why our brains do the things they do and kind of the false ways in which kind of the illusions that we have and whatnot, that all comes from really like learning more about psychology and the brain. But I think for me, I wanted to like figure out a way for a lot of people that maybe didn't feel depressed or didn't feel like, I need to go into my childhood trauma, but I just wanna know like. I don't want to be upset every day. I don't want to be stressed every day. I don't want be frustrated every day. What do I do with that? And so I think that was what sort of like led me more to coaching than it because I had considered like, I want to go back and become a therapist? Do I want to like do this stuff? And I was really realizing like I wanted to help people more kind of go after bigger goals, go after dreams, just be okay with. the fear and all that stuff that comes along with it. So I'm not sure if I answered your question. my God. So, and you know what? I actually want to take that somewhere because you actually helped in more ways than you know. So one of the bigger challenges I think that exists is that, and I'm going to actually confess to something. So I used to be all about everybody has to do therapy, therapy. was like a evangelist, right? And my sister is not really into therapy, right? And I, and I have a few friends who don't go into therapy, but they're also doing a lot of work, right? So they're doing a lot of the work and through working with them. I grew and started to understand that there are a lot of different tools. Therapy is one of many tools and not everybody needs the same thing at the same time for the same thing. So I'm glad you answered it the way you did because I think that one of the biggest, I was conditioned, right? Because we grew up, if you have problems, go to therapy, talk therapy, right? Now I've been in therapy since I was, you know, I mean, I grew up in trauma. like the whole nine, know, so I've been in therapy for many, many, many years. I need that, right? Totally. But not everyone does and so for but what I realized at a certain point in therapy was that you know I have been dealing with this shit for a while, but I'm not moving forward. Yeah. I feel like I'm sorting this out, but I'm not moving forward. This was about six or seven years ago and it made me realize that there were other pieces to the puzzle that I was missing. So what I really loved about what you shared is is that it There are people who are gonna listen who are like, I know I need a therapist because I've got X, Y, Z issue and that's what it is. Some aren't gonna be sure, but others are going to have gone down the therapy route and been like, this isn't for me for whatever reason, it's not helping. But then they feel like they've hit the wall, right? Thud, what do I do next? Where do I go? If I'm not gonna see a therapist. Then what? So what I really love about this is that, you know, there's, we've had a couple of people who on who've done other things. And I love it when somebody says, no, I did it this way, or I did it that way, because it provides another avenue for someone for whom therapy is not the right option or for whom they've already done that they've sorted that shit out. They've got other stuff that they need to work on now. And it's not the therapist isn't the appropriate tool for that. I think that our culture like loves to put certain things on pedestals or whatnot, which is fine. But One of the things that I learned early on is that there is, you know, our brain loves black and white. We love certainty. So we want to know like, this is the thing. This is the thing that's going to change me. And this is, and I think I just realized like everything is just a tool and there's tons of different tools and not, nothing is the one thing. Even the thing I teach, I talk about this like thought work and mindset work. is not the answer to every problem you're gonna have. There's times where you don't need to manage your mind. You need to get out of that. Like if you're in abusive relationship, you need to out of the, yeah, you need to get out. And I think a lot of times people are constantly looking at like, well, and you see trolls on social media, like your teeth, it's like, well, that doesn't work in this situation. Yeah, of course it doesn't work in that situation because it's not meant to work in every single situation, right? Like nothing does. And so I think for, I look at like, there's a lot of things, and so many people in my program, There's times where people will come and I will tell them like this is not the place for that. Like you need to go to therapy for that. Like that is something that you really need to work through with a therapist one-on-one. And so like, because I'm not going to take on something that I can't help you with, you know? And equally, I have so many people in my program who are doing therapy and doing coaching and they constantly tell me like, and I talked to my therapist about this and they come to coaching for something different, right? So it's like. this is where I go to maybe work through these issues. And then I also want to figure out what I'm going to do next in my career. And I work through that in coaching. And so I think it never has to be an all or nothing thing. I think they go beautifully together. I think there's places where you do want to dive deeper, maybe in a one-on-one setting and you want to be in a place where it's going to be more trauma informed and you're going to talk about traumas. And then you want to be in a place where you're like, okay, but I also need to like figure out what the hell I'm doing next. I need make decisions. Tactics. I need some strategies and I some tools and I need to talk to this through. And so I think you know, as I go through this work too, I'm constantly like, cool, this is another tool I can use when I'm super anxious and this isn't working for me and I'll try this other one. Like there's no reason why it has to be just one. I love it. And you know what? And I think that's a really great, fabulous thing to sort of end on in that the idea that there are many solutions, like, and I think actually I got this message from the universe earlier and that's actually where my existential crisis is coming from is the understanding that there's a lot of answers and I'm like, my God, I want there to be just one answer and I'm freaking the fuck out right now. So that's where I'm at. You know, it's totally cosmic, but it's like, you're absolutely right. Like there's, there's a lot. So, okay. You can find me really anywhere at Lessons from a Quitter on Instagram is mostly where I hang out. My podcast is called Lessons from a Quitter and then you can go to lessonsfromaquitter.com to really get, you know, all of the information about the membership or the articles that I have, the podcast that I have, it's all on there. I'm just going to say, I'm actually going say this. It was going to be the beginning. Today's guest is such a brilliant, brilliant, honestly, I'm going to call you a thought leader because that is exactly what you are. I feel like every person who is in the, that I have ever talked to who is in corporate America could benefit from listening to your podcast, reading what you have to say because you know, I, I, what I found is that you are the imp The empower of the employee, right? The empower of the person who like, there's a lot of articles and things out there teaching people, this is what you're doing wrong, or this is how a company is supposed to behave, or this is what they're supposed to do. But it's what you do is you sort of plant the seed that allows us to see from within ourselves, right? And feel strong. And so I think it's like for anyone who is feeling like, I feel like I used to love my job, but I don't anymore. I'm feeling tired or I'm not sure. They need to go to Lessons from a Quitter. Join your membership, become your best friend, whatever. Definitely come become my best friend. I love that. It's going to be my new tagline. love that so much. The empower of the employee. What a great... Of course. Thank you. I really appreciate you having me. It's been so fun. yeah, mean, anybody that doesn't feel empowered in your job, come find me. I'm You've got special powers though You make me scared, you make me go
