Mastering Your Inner Narrative with Karen Marinella-Hall

In this episode of Stop Shoulding All Over Yourself, I chat with leadership coach and executive communications expert Karen Marinella-Hall about overcoming self-sabotage and stepping into your full potential.

We explore the Positive Intelligence framework and how recognizing your internal “saboteurs” (like the Avoider or Stickler) can help you move past self-doubt and procrastination. Karen shares her personal journey, including how a life-changing trip to Antarctica inspired her to reinvent herself and embrace courageous change.

We also discuss the power of self-awareness, the importance of aligning your values with your goals, and how small, intentional steps can lead to lasting transformation. Whether you’re navigating a career shift or just seeking clarity, this episode is packed with actionable insights.

Take the free saboteur assessment linked in the show notes and start your journey to greater self-awareness today! Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and share! 🎙️

CONNECT WITH ME MORE AT:
http://www.stopshoulding.me
https://www.instagram.com/minessa.konecky/

🎵 Thank you to Karacter for allowing me to use Telepathy (2005) in my intro.
This is one of my favorite albums of all time.
👉 Check it out: https://karacter.bandcamp.com/album/karacter

Chapters

• 2:59 The Impact of Inner Narratives on Action
• 6:10 Self-Sabotage and Awareness
• 15:02 Navigating Corporate Friction
• 23:58 Navigating Loneliness in Urban Life
• 25:57 The Quest for Authenticity and Self-Discovery
• 27:50 Understanding Privilege and Personal Values
• 32:33 The Transition from Objectivity to Personal Opinion
• 36:36 Identifying and Managing Inner Saboteurs

Transcript

0:12

Hello and welcome to the Stop Shooting All Over Yourself podcast. We are on episode 92. Already we're at episode 92. We are heading towards the end of the 100 episode series, which is very, very exciting. And today I'm actually super excited to have Karen Maranello Hall on the podcast. Now, some of you may remember Karen from her days on WB56. Others will remember her from just the other day in the South Shore Conference for Women. She was our emcee and she was fabulous. We had so much fun with her. Or you may be seeing her around these days because her media presence now is growing, growing, growing again. And she is an executive coach and an all around amazing, incredible woman. And when we talked, we talked a lot about in this podcast about mastering your inner narrative and how that impacts. how you show up in the world. For she and I, we both went to Emerson. We both had long, varied careers doing many different things. So many stories that were told, and we've talked about this before, stories that were told to us about who we are. And then the stories that we tell ourselves long after some of the people who wrote the stories are gone. And we bring those with us over the course of our lifetime. And then here we are at some stage of our lives, basically with this whole narrative about who we are that we haven't really revisited in a long time and... A lot of the stories that we tell about ourselves are just really mean, really unhealthy, and they keep us from truly claiming some things that are vital for our existence. Something as simple as rest, right? Rest, taking time off, clocking out from work. Unless your inner narrative allows you to believe that you can still have value when you're not working and not producing in a capitalist society that's very, very difficult, like I find myself back on that train, then you'll always find reasons to work because the inner narrative doesn't actually allow you to do it without guilt. So you might actually not work, but you'll be thinking about it constantly while you're doing the dishes and whatnot, right? So before we can take action on a lot of things to really, that we feel like we deserve or that we're ready for, that we know we want to do, but something keeps holding us back. like, I don't understand why I can't just clock out or I don't understand why I can't just do whatever, right? A lot of times that comes from an inner narrative that has created a foundation. that tells a story that if we do that thing, like either we're not capable, we can't do it, you think you're all that, like whatever the story is, that's the thing that actually holds us back, right? So like once you solve that story, the actual action of doing the thing is not that hard to do, but it's the journey to get to that point where you're mastering your inner narrative to even give yourself permission to do the thing. And so in this conversation with Karen, we talked about that really. in depth and so I wanted to share this with you is because all of the stop shooting all over yourselves episodes, every single one of them talks about something that you may or may not want to address. You're like, this is what I want to look at right now. I'm having trouble with pleasure or I'm having trouble with quitting or I'm having whatever it is that you're having trouble with. You realize this is what I want to work on and you read the books and you know the things to do, but you can't seem to take the action. And you're like, I don't understand what's holding me back. this is a possibility, right? So this is a really, really real possibility of something that could be holding you back that with some work on rewriting the inner narrative, that then this thing that was so difficult to do before, now you're just like, this is easy, I can do this. But it was really about the story as opposed to trying to force ourselves to do the thing. And so I'm really excited to see how after listening to this podcast, things start to flow better for you, kind of like lube it up a little bit. And you're like, yeah, I totally, this is working. This is working now. I'm not gonna keep you from it. Let's listen. I was doing it and I could tell that like some of the questions, like I would have answered them differently like a few years ago, you know, like as you do them, you're like, cause you can see and I'm like, damn, I remember when I was so quick to get angry or when I was so worked up and I was like, damn, we've come a long way, baby. Isn't that the truth? Isn't that the truth? It's I, for me, it was a game changer when I when I did that assessment, I think I did it two years ago, maybe two and a half years ago for the first time. And it was kind of a thing in the coaching community. People were kind of talking about it. So, and often I did it and all of a sudden my life made sense. you're a stickler and an avoider. Yeah, it could not have been truer. It could not have been true. So I'm curious though, you know, when you find so like I tend to when somebody says something or I see something that's true at least, you know, for many years it would be for everything. Now I've learned how to like temper this. But my first response is you're absolutely wrong. Fuck off. You don't know anything about me. Right. But like now I'm a little bit better about it. But my instinctive reaction is still no, not like that. Do you find yourself doing that? Yes, sometimes. Yes, yes. But I'm a harsh critic. So. Hence the stickler label. There you go. I'm a harsh self-critic. So as soon as stickler popped up, I'm like, yes, all I have was stickler. you other times, like if people tell me, you you're too opinionated, you're too this, you're too that, I would definitely put my hand up and say, no, I don't think so. But when stickler kind of came up and avoider, my gosh. my God, I'm such an avoider. That's definitely one of my things. And it holds us back. It really does, you know, and it's funny because you start to realize that you've been in your way all along. Like, and it's like your brain. How good is our brain at like writing the story that will prevent you from doing whatever it is? Everything that is. So I'm famous for my little to do list. I I walked around a little to do less. I have one right in front of me now. I am not even. remotely exaggerated when I tell you and I do it every week. here's here's what the look at this. This is not bad. I did you die. You're you're speaking to my heart right now. A few little things on here right now. Usually it's a page and a half, but I carry over things from week to week. I am not kidding you. When I took that assessment, I had two things on this list that I would carry over week to week for not one. And not two, but almost three years. I was going to say, like, I have some that go back years that you just like, you just keep moving them. And at some point though, I look at it I'm like, you know what, if I haven't done this yet, I'm probably not going to do it. I'm going to do myself a huge favor. I'm just taking it off the list. And that's, that's smart. I wasn't smart. no, I did that after like three years. It took me a long time to figure that out. Finally took one off the list, no lie, last month in the month of April I took it off the list. I finally did it after all these years, which was just sort of, it was a self care kind of thing, financial self care. Like going through, and I hate this stuff, that's the problem. I hate the finances, I hate the accounting part of our business. Me too. I hate it. So I avoided, avoided, I finally did it and it was like, I would rather go to the dentist and I hate the dentist. my God, I feel like you're like, I'll cry. I'm sitting there doing my finances and I'm like, should say, this is so hard. And it's, I just did it before this meeting. I hate it. May 1st. Right. That's I did it. You know why though? I was like, I was excited to meet with you. Right. And so was like, all right, I'm going to kind of like ride this momentum wave and be like, all right, I'm going to do something I really hate. So I just want to say, I feel like a really big person right now. I feel like I'm, I'm like better than everyone else. You know, when you do that thing, you're like, look at me. That's the thing, when you finally overcome that avoider thing, when you kind of attack it head on or whatever it is that comes up for you in that assessment, when you finally attack it, you feel so good on the other side of it, like, my gosh, I finally, and it wasn't as hard as I thought it was, it just was monotonous and something I don't enjoy doing, but sometimes we have to do things we don't enjoy. You know, actually, I'm curious, because there's something, my wife and I were talking about this the other day, and this is kind of, Dovetails into your specialty of coaching too. You know over the years, you know You meet people and you talk to people who have caught where we have conversations like this and we talk about that moment of like incredible friction within us where we're just like All right, and then either you push through it and do the thing But there are many people and I'm curious, know Because this has been always been very difficult for me as a coach is that there are people in this world who when they reach that point will actively sabotage themselves you know, speaking of the saboteurs. And so I'm curious to know like how in your in your experience, how can one tell right when they're in that moment? Like if they're sad, if like what are the signs that they might be sabotaging themselves? So I always I don't know about you, but I have a bodily reaction when the saboteur piece comes in. So for me, it's in the gut. I feel like I've just had six sour lemons. That's my gut. You know. it's some people their heart starts to race some people break out in a sweat I find this usually some sort of an anxiety related reaction to it that comes up and and that's the trigger I think for a lot of people but then there are to your point there are some people who are just not even aware there's zero self-awareness I was talking to a client this week as a matter of fact who described some characteristics of a parent that that weren't ideal. And as the conversation went on, this person has the exact same characteristics and I had to call it. There was zero self-awareness. So it's hard if people don't know and you don't have a physical reaction, but most people have something. Do you get one? I do, mine and my hackles. like right, it's in the lower back. It's like, feel it, know, sort of like my hackles go up. I think though, you know, it's interesting that you say that because I think that like one of, have a, so my decolonization coach and I have been talking about the mind body responses to things. So it's interesting that you're bringing this up like right now. And when I think back to myself, say maybe 10 years ago, I'm not even that far back actually, let's go back seven or eight years. I was in such a traumatic state that I wasn't even in my body. And so I wouldn't even have known if I like, there was so much other stuff going on. So I'm curious, like, you feel like in order for someone to make that determination that there's like, you have to be, like you said, there's no self-awareness, but sometimes like, do feel like that sometimes it's like a protective mechanism. There's another step in between. can be, there's definitely, I call it like that peeling the onion a little bit. gotta kind of keep peeling and kind of figure out what's at the root of the whole thing. I mean, hence the three year financial piece of work I had to to figure out what's holding me back. So I think you do have to peel that onion with yourself and with people that you're coaching as well to help them see it. So it's one thing for me to see it, the coach, the person needs to see it, the client. Right, you can't. You can't get them there. Yeah, and that's actually, so I think that's really like, it's, do you, like, do you enjoy that journey of like, cause like you can. see it right because like it's almost like the matrix you're like i see it right but then you're it's almost like a puzzle so tell me a little bit about like that part of it for you well you know too i know but i want people to hear about it from you it's it's really about asking questions i love it it's it's a whole i think it's an exciting piece because you really start to i love that peeling the onion idea yeah i'm really trying to get to the root of it I see it, but it takes a while to help them see it as well for themselves. And so kind of guiding that conversation. And it's like a little treasure hunt almost, a little bit of a journey where you're kind of discovering this about this person. As you go along, you find out more and more and more. But it's all in asking great questions or asking basic questions. They don't even have to be crazy and sightful. One of my favorite questions that always gets sort of a blank stare is the What do you want question? Right. What do you want? And it's amazing to me how many people cannot answer that question. What do you want? Do you think we're like allowed to a lot of us aren't allowed to sort of like, or, know, we're allowed to, but we don't think we are right. Cause it's like, I'm supposed to be, especially if you're socialized as a woman, what am I doing for other people? Like it's almost for you to think about wanting for yourself is like, you're so What is it like? What terrible mom you are. Like you're so greedy or you're so selfish. Right. Those stories. Like how do you like, cause I'm curious, like at some point, actually, let me ask you this. At some point you, you must've like been on the other side of this. Right. So like, what was your, what was your moment where you were like, wait a minute, like I, I can do this or, or maybe this is a direction I want to go in. my God. Best story ever. I was in Antarctica. Wow, that's already a really good story. It just starts right there. was in a dark. Okay, hit me with this. It starts right there. So doing corporate work, you know, do a lot of corporate work at that point. And I, my boys, I did a ton of travel. So two of my three boys said to me, mom, you've got to go to the seventh continent. Why? I don't know why. Cause I've been to all the other ones. So you've got to finish this. This is a bucket list thing. So it was a stressful thing in the corporate world, dealing with all the pressures of, you know that deal, the corporate world. So I'm on this trip with these two to Antarctica, because of course they all wanted to go with me. That's why they wanted you to go. I think there's truth in that. We were on this trip and it's daylight at that time of year. It was summer when we were down there. So it was 30 degrees. This was four or five years ago now. It was five years ago. And it was New Year's Eve and I was outside at midnight enjoying this scene. I have a photo of it here in my office. The light is just extraordinary because it never got dark. It got sort of, you know, fairy tale like golden out there. it's all these icebergs around you and mountains and absolute serenity. an absolute quiet and just pure and I literally felt like I was in the presence of something sacred and I'm not you know one of these people you know that professes to have a tremendous faith or anything like that but in that moment I felt something very different and profound that made me say I need to make a change. It just opened up something in me. So it was in Antarctica. That's that's amazing. Were you scared when you realized you had to make a change or were you like resolute like like because like there's I'm afraid. But then there's like, you know what I've got like I just I'm ready. It's time. It was so clear and I can be a little bit wishy washy and afraid of my own shadow and afraid of that question. What do I want? I definitely can be afraid of that. And in that moment, it was just so clear. And then the universe works in very mysterious ways. I came back from that trip and that was in January. Two weeks later I was laid off from my job. And then two weeks after that, both my parents became ill. So all of a sudden, the whole universe changed. And I was available to my parents during a really hard time. And I started to build this life that I truly wanted. And it was, it was incredible. It was just an absolute life changing time. You know, I think that was when I think about my, like, there was a moment in April, 2018 where I had no idea what I wanted. I remember like sitting on the floor of my house and I was just like crying and bawling and I, and I was like, you know what? I don't even know how to know what I want. Like I don't even, I didn't even know how to ask the question because I just felt like, I felt like a lot of things, but then I, when I look back now, I see that as like, the best moment of my life, even though like it was so traumatic because that was the beginning. like at that point when you say like, I don't know, but I know that it's not this. And I, that's one thing I know it's not. And then I can do that thing. And it just, it, but damn, that's hard. That is like hard. Like you just mentioned your parents were sick. You like that is a brutal unbecoming right there where you're starting out, you know, and what's, what's so odd about it. mean, when, I, my position was eliminated, this tech company I was bummed you know I thought I'm gonna retire from this place live you know an easy street and be just you know easy easy easy so I was bombed when I left and I have to tell you that in hindsight it turned out to be the best thing that ever happened because when your older parents are ill it's hard to just take time off from work and go take them to all these doctors offices and do all that with them and I ended up losing my dad at that point. My mom is doing well. Thank you very good. So glad to hear it. She's alive and well in the Cape. But my dad did not fare well during that period. But I've got to tell you, I was so present. And I don't think I would have been had I not done Antarctica and got some presence in that moment. Hadn't been laid off and then was able to be fully present for that whole period. What a gift. Absolutely, absolutely. know, it's and I think for my same thing happened with my my so my mom got very ill and it was a brief period of my life where I was a millionaire and I was able to just quit my job and be present with her the whole time. And it is a gift because you know, you look back on that and it's I think it gives you like it's almost like what COVID did later years later where it really makes it makes you think about what is important what you want to spend your time on. Like what you want your life to sorry, there's a I don't know if you can hear it, but there's a Coast Guard chopper going like right outside my house right now. I mean, it's fine. I live right on. I live right on the cliff on Plymouth. So there's constantly going like it is nice. If we ever talked about that where you're in Plymouth. I grew up there. No kidding. Whereabouts? I grew up in North Plymouth. wow. We actually we go up there a lot for dinner. We are in South Plymouth in Manamook. okay. Yeah. It was my dream to move here. My grandfather lived down in Manamet on the, on the cliff and he was on shore road. You're great. I'm in the same. I'm actually in the same association that you're, I live on CBU drive. I know just what that is. I know this is what happens on the South shore. You realize that everybody's your neighbor or you know somebody from somewhere. Well, okay, I'm gonna hit you with something. I'll go ahead for you first and I'll tell you what I learned about you. What you don't know about, what no one knows about me, I'm about to share this with wow. I was the queen. So if you go down to the bottom, I think if you have the same thing, there's a little ramp that goes down to a beach down there, a rocky beach. Yep. Queen of the rock climbing down there. You know what? I walked, I tried to climb those rocks. That is no joke. That is, I just want to say that is mad skills right there. and anyone who has seen my Tik Tok, you've seen those rocks. Wow. That's amazing. I was, I was the queen of this people, one rock in particular. I'll find that blindfolded. That's amazing. my God. I love that. And you know, so I, when I was, so I was looking, you know, cause I had all the, I have a whole thing of, know, cause I, know, things that I want to talk about with you. Typically the conversation kind of just goes where it goes, but I have the questions in case But as I was doing that I also learned that you and I both went to Emerson and I know I went many years after I'm trying for I went in 98 97 98 you were actually a news anchor by then you were on 10 I was on channel 56 56 I was it I was at Emerson watching you on my little TV and I had a little VCR thing in it. That's hysterical That's the only school I applied to Me too. They and my sister we all it's I love that school. my god. I loved Emerson so much. It was so great It was good times now. I'm curious. Did you live in the dorms? No, no, so I grew up in a very strict Italian home Wow I so growing up in Pakistan, I had nowhere else to go. I had to kind of live in the dorms. I wish I could have, but they had some really nice dorms. you know what's funny? So I moved to the States. So this is my first I moved to the States once before many years ago. That didn't work out well for me. This time around, I moved to Boston. I'm in Six Arlington Street right on the common right on the on the park. Gorgeous. And I think to myself. I'm one of my 21 or something. And I'm like, I'm going to rent an apartment around here when I graduate. That's that's what I said. I said that. No, they turn those into luxury condos that are like $10 million a piece now. Like, my God. I used to have the same dream and I still have the same dream. I'm so lovely. Who can afford it? But it's so every time I see a Marlboro Street address or like, I'm like, wow, that's that's a that's a nice house right there. a good house. It was a great school. I loved it. it was so much fun. It was absolutely fabulous. So I'm curious. So like when we go, you know, one of the things when we talk about because you work with well, actually, I'd like to talk a little about who you're with. So my listeners and people who follow me on LinkedIn tend to be overachieving people who are who are in corporate America, health care, academia, who are also at this point like You and I've talked about this a lot how the corporate infrastructure exists in one way and we're trying to navigate a new way of working in there while doing a lot of this work. So I'm curious to know like in your work, you, how do you, what are some of the things that you run into or what would you say is like the thing that you run into most often related to this, this friction that now exists between the lives that people want to have versus what corporations feel like they need to mandate to be able to, to It's so true. had, it was almost a really sad conversation I had a couple weeks ago with a young, youngish client. And he was reaching out, it was his first call with me and he, I always start with, what do you want out of coaching? And he literally went like this. He's like, look around, look where I'm talking to you from. And he was in a little apartment at his kitchen. And you can see the stove and the refrigerator and all this behind him. And he said to me, I moved to New York City to work at a big financial services firm and I'm talking to you today from New York City in my apartment at my kitchen counter and I am so lonely and so miserable. I have my dream job and I'm here. And he's really feeling isolated and I'm hearing that. So... in that age group, that's what I'm hearing, where people are feeling a little bit isolated. They don't want to be in the office all the time, but they also don't want to be sitting at their kitchen counter all the time. And then how do you bridge that gap? And he said, I came here, I came to New York, like capital of the financial world. And he said, and I thought I was going to build all these relationships and have this great network and all this. And he said, and I'm sitting here in my kitchen and I have no network. I don't know what to do. really hard conversations because I think that's a big piece of this. How are you building that network and can it be done the same way? No, the world has changed. So how do you build that network in a different way moving forward? And I think those are really big questions, especially for that generation. You know, and you said something, if you want to connect what you said earlier to what you said just now, you talked about what do you want and I don't, I'm going to take this person's scenario and just kind of create my own fantasy scenario out of it. like, you know, a long time ago, I thought I needed a lot of money, right? Because it was, you know, having lots and having a lot of money does give you a lot of freedom and all of those things, right? And so I'm not going to discount that. But there was this list of prescribed boxes that if you checked it off, you would be happy. Like that was the rule that's success. Or, you know, it's not even happy you'd be successful, you would have won at life, whatever that means. And what I'm finding is that And maybe this is why they called it a midlife crisis in the 80s and the 90s. But what it really was, was people realizing they had checked off all the boxes, but they were still miserable. And now they realized, I don't even know how to figure out what I want. like, that sort of why it's so important to know what you want in the first place? I think it is. to know, and I think even before you get to that, you have to know who you are. Who I absolutely my god, I didn't know who I was I had to figure that out first Right you got to figure that out first and really think about How you're showing up in the world and how you want to show up in the world? Not how you want people to see you in the world. How do you want to show up in the world? What is what is the person you want to be in this world? And and what are your values? I really think values are so important to to understand what's important. You won't be important to the next person But if you're working at a place where your values don't align with the company values, that's a big problem. It is bad. You are miserable. I mean, I've seen people like this too, who they're on antidepressants, they're gaining weight, the dog barks at them when they come home, the wife's cranky, or the husband's... And they're miserable because they're working at a place that doesn't reflect who they are. Is there privilege around that? And we have the option to have the, yeah, you bet there is some of that for sure. But I think that you always have to be able to step back and be real with yourself first, regardless of circumstances. Some people have more privilege than others. I totally understand that. But it starts right here. Who are you? And what do you want to be in the world? And I think you do more from that place. Absolutely, but you know what's interesting you said something about like a privilege and one of them and I and it's something that you know We it's where we both talk about a lot in terms of like We have we have had a lot of privileges to be able to achieve the way we have and so you throw the ladder down You do what you can. one of the ways in which we do that you and I both and I would I love how you just allowed me to bring this right in here is the South Shore conference for women because we met there and it's like it's affordable it's accessible and One of the things that I really, and because that's, saw you on stage there and I was like, my God, I don't know who this person is, but I love her. And then I was like, my God, wait a minute, I totally know you. I was like, why do I know you? And then I was like, my God, of course. And, but because the, once you are able to access sort of like the conversations, even if you're not, and I was talking to somebody about this the other day who, You know, she's been doing the work slowly on her own through podcasts and whatnot. And she reached the stage where she was like, I'm ready to go to the next level. And like, she had the confidence to apply for something that she would never have applied for, say like a year ago. And now her income situation has changed and so on. But if you had told her a year ago that she would now be in a position where, know, where she would have the means to be able to self actualize in the way she wants to, she wouldn't have believed you. but for like a year just sitting there, you know, reading the books, listening to the podcast, things slowly percolate through. And like, I think there's an element of trusting that it, that, the network that you have, the relationships you build, the tools that you can use that will, your subconscious will do a lot of that work with you. I agree. And there's a courage factor in there, isn't there also. You have to have that courage to step out and be a little uncomfortable. That's not easy. that's something, I mean, I struggle with that too. I mean, it sounds crazy. I mean, I was on TV for a thousand years here in Boston and people are like, what do you mean you struggle with, you know, having that confidence to that? What's interesting about the work I did before, you weren't allowed to have an opinion back then. I actually had a question about that. You didn't have an opinion. So for years I was trained at Emerson. to not have an opinion, to be objective. And so, who the heck am I now, she says, to come out and have an opinion or a thought on anything? This was not how I was trained. So this courage that has to come into what you're suggesting too, that allowing things to percolate, allowing yourself to trust yourself, know yourself, trust yourself, and then go out there, ooh, that last step is like that step of a diving That's the hard, it's like, my god. Holy cow, that's a hard. I'm just gonna stand here for six years just poised over the edge. Or when you're going into the ocean down near you. yeah, no, that's. Takes a long time to get up to the knees of that water. I'm not getting to the knee. I'm just gonna stand there and be like, this is really nice. I'm gonna look at it. I totally get that. You actually, so you, going back to what you were saying about, you know, being on the news. And I think this is really interesting because you said earlier about. Not how you want to be seen, right? You got to figure out how you want to show up, not how you want to be seen. And what's interesting is that from our, most of us are silently programming and conditioning ourselves to show up and masking in such a way so that we are showing up the way we want to be seen, not how we are. What's really interesting to me is that you were actually actively trained into how do we forget about, even if you know who you are, it doesn't matter. Like, and so I'm curious how difficult, like, I'm curious to know what that was like for you to cross over into this space where you were like, I'm now going to share my opinion. Like I tell me a little bit more about that part, cause that's delicious. I know that's why I love it. It's delicious. Help me Obi-Wan. That doesn't come very easily, but I think being in the, so when I had to leave television, the station was sold to channel seven, which was a great move for Channel 7 to acquire them. But we were all out of jobs. All of a sudden, you have to start to think about, OK, now what am I going to do with myself and all this experience that I've had here? It was a remarkable, remarkable experience being there. And that was the first moment of, what am I even capable of? Never mind, how do I want to show it? What can I even do? When you've done something for a long time and that's all you know how to do, what do you do now? Yeah. There was a whole process of reinvention that was one of the hardest things I think I've ever done because I didn't even know what I could do. I went to Emerson, I was going to do this, I went, you know, worked in radio and television and ended up here. I mean, I had done it for 25 years. Now what? I didn't even know where to begin with that. So that was the beginning of that metamorphosis and I thrived initially in that corporate world. I loved it. And in hindsight, I almost wish I'd gone into business. I would have been a CEO or something. my God. Absolutely. Absolutely. You could still be a CEO. You know, like we can do so we can do anything. Yeah, it's true. I don't mean it like that. I actually mean, we literally can just do anything. We're like, I'm going to do this now and then I'm going to do this now and then I'm going to do this now. Right. You've already done like five things. could easily do something else. You've reinvented yourself a bunch. It's true. It's true. You know what it really is though? It's Peeling of the onions layer as you say like what's really been happening is I've just been slowly peeling away and like I love the analogy because it's like you cry the whole way It's so true, but you've done it masterfully, mean, my god, is that what it looks like on the outside? It's all good. It's all good. I think you do a great job. It was not no, please I love what you're doing now with this podcast, like inviting people to explore a different way of looking at everything. It's amazing. We have to. I think we get, not pigeonholed, but we get into a place where this is how it's supposed to be. At least that's the stickler in me saying that. Me too. This is what we do and this is how we do it. And I love the invitation to kind of step out of that and reimagine and reinvent. I love the ability to be able to do that because I think the story that we were told as kids was and I think that's part of the challenge right especially if you grew up in the 80s and the 90s where this is what you do is what you do for the rest of your life and then you retire and so then you went into corporate and you're like I'm gonna do this till the rest of my life and my retire when I was in Pakistan actually I was I wanted to move to the States desperately and I was gonna work at McDonald's till I retired And then I was going to be, so then after that, when I moved to the States, I worked at the paradise as a bouncer and I loved that so much. I was like, I'm going to do this for the rest of my life. my gosh. You cannot do that job for more than a year or two. It's, it's hard. I would think so. That's stressful. It was fun. my God. was so much fun. You weren't bouncing me out of there at that point. Actually, you know what's really interesting? our best shows were this band called Super Diamond where many of like, and I actually was like, it was usually people who were older than me, women who would come and listen to Super Diamond. And so that was our biggest thing that and walk the line, the Aerosmith cover band from they're so good. my God, they're amazing. So we actually had, and because I typically tend to go a generation above in my media because growing up in Pakistan, like all of my stuff is like the 70s and 80s. I barely know stuff from like the 90s and my friends were all in their 50s and 60s are like, why is it that your pop culture reference is like Eddie Money? And it's like, because he's amazing. Good playlists, good playlists. I know, right? So I want to let's talk a little bit about I want to talk about the the the assessment. So specifically because you had me take it and it's part of the modality sort of that you work with. So I would love to because as as people listen to the podcasts are going to be like, hey, I want to learn. want what is this tool and how does it work? So tell me a little bit about what it does and how you use it. So this is great. By the way, I want to find out what your top two if you want to share. absolutely. I have my thing and everything. What were your top two? Okay, so my top two saboteurs were, me just get it open, were hyper vigilant, which was no surprise to me. Hyper vigilant. surprise. And then, and then I'm a combination of restless and controller. interesting. So those were the two. The restless one made a lot of sense. I tend to get bored really quickly, hence the reinvention. And then the controller, I guess that comes from my hyper vigilance. Both of those come from my trauma where it's like, so that's something I'm actively working on, like deconstructing right now. It's cause the hackles, like I'd like it if they weren't always like, you know, like ready to go. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know what? But then there are also some plus sizes sides to that as well. So you definitely are focused and know how to get things done. And so there's some nice, not all bad. It's not all bad. Alright, so again, this was introduced to me a couple, three years ago. And this is based on the work of a gentleman called Shazad Shamin, who's based out in California. And he used to run, he used to be the CEO of the Coaches Training Institute, CTI, which is where I got my coaching training. And so I kind of went into this thing, thinking, this might be a little bit woo-woo, I'm not really sure. But it helps you, this assessment helps you identify the saboteurs. So what are these saboteurs? It sounds a little woo-woo. These are the voices inside of you. We all have them. We all have pieces of ourselves that talk to us and give us negative feedback. Every single person does. And whether it's the judge, whether it's the stickler, the avoider, whatever it is. And these are lies that we're telling ourselves on a consistent basis. And for me, what was so revealing by taking this assessment and sort of seeing where I landed with these two particularly, it was really interesting to be able to be aware of it, understand the impact it has and how it was holding me back from different things, and then learning how to manage it. It's not going away. In fact, it's almost like a party, know, when something's challenging come up, you kind of wait, okay, stickler, we're my God, absolutely. Come on, or the avoid or whatever it is. Knowing what it is when it happens and then how can you manage it moving forward. That's the beautiful thing of this that I really have cherished going through. I really have loved it and then when I hear it in other people too. How do you manage it? It's there, it's showing up. What do you do with it? You know what you said actually, I think it actually creates a little bit of tension I think in a worldview where you feel like once you figure out what the solution is, you're just not supposed to feel it anymore, right? So like, you know, and I think that's, this is a very interesting way of approaching it because I think so many of us are given the messages that you have to fix whatever it is. Even I defaulted to it when we were just talking. said, I got to fix this. And you were like, no, no, no. Cause like that's how we're conditioned to think that this is something wrong. I love how you said that it's really about knowing what it is, recognizing it, having that awareness, and then managing it. now you said you've been using the tool for a couple of years, like in terms of the management stuff. How have you found that it's sort of like made your life a little bit easier? my gosh, just knowing the avoider piece. of all, every time I hit the taxes, anytime, anything to do with checking in the house, anything. A voider shows up and I know that that's what's happening, but I still have to get it done. So I've created little routines, little tactics, little things that just help me get through it. And I feel so good on the other side of it. I also have been empowered in so many ways, things that I thought were too hard or that I couldn't do like this podcast. I've been avoiding the podcast world because I thought it would be hard because I didn't know, you know, what would I have to say on this podcast or something like this. I've been avoiding it. So now I'm kind of stepping in, forcing myself to explore. And I love that I'm doing that. It's so much fun. So I was on the golf course this week too. Same idea, and I'm a terrible golfer. Just throw it out there. But we go to this golf course, my husband and I, and this weekend, as a matter of fact, We got to the 18th hole and the 18th hole you tee off and it goes over a street to the fairway on the other side of a street and I've never ever ever in a million years teed off from that hole because why bother I'm only gonna hit a car. this weekend was the first time I said I'm gonna do it. So I'm confronting things that I know I've been avoiding just because I know I can. Just confront them. That's the muscle I try to build. I'm afraid of this. I'm avoiding it. Let's see what happens. Let's see what happens when you go on a podcast. Let's see what happens. And by the way, I hit it over the street. I was going to say, how did that go? And also you came on this podcast and didn't die. So I feel like you're winning. This is a win for you all around. This is a good week. This is a really, really good week. So I realized actually speaking of which are like, what would it, what would I have to say? It's like, well, you know, we've already filled up 40 minutes and we could, and I still haven't even gotten to any of my, any of my, well, I mean, I did get through the questions, but, they just sort of happened automatically, but I have like another list. so the, terms of, okay, so now we've talked about the tool and how to use it. So I'll have the link in the show notes so people can test it out and, and look at it. So the question that I have now is like, okay, so If someone is listening to this podcast, because typically what I hope people would get out of a podcast is they hear somebody and something like it scratches an itch somewhere. Maybe it's not today, maybe it's not tomorrow, but it happens eventually. And then, you know, and then they're like, I want to explore this a little bit further. I'd love to know, like, how do you like, how do you work with people? What do you help them do? How do you, what is it that you're gonna, cause you mentioned what they want, but tell us, tell me a little bit about that. Yeah. So if they're dealing just with. with this and they're just interested in the positive intelligence, that's one route for sure. And take that assessment, it's free. It's easy to do. What did it take you, five It took like five minutes and it's great. I love the way the results come out and like you said, it's really about how do you live with this rather than how do you quote unquote fix yourself. That's right. And then oftentimes I'll work with someone after the fact teaching how to build those muscles. So there lots of exercises you can do to build different muscles depending on what your results are and things like that. So that's always good. But my typical clients, I definitely work with lot of high potential corporate, I'm working in corporate. And I introduce this to a lot of my clients in corporate, which is so interesting, because I thought at first it would be too woo-woo for them to be thinking about their saboteurs. But it shows up. It shows up a lot with them. So I work with clients for a minimum of six months usually. We work through the things that are holding them back. That's my sweet spot. and helping them get ready to get to that next level. So next level leadership is my sweet spot with them. And it's a magnificent career, you know. people every day and it really helped them get somewhere. That's the best job I ever had in my life. my God, I love it. It's one of my favorite things to do so much so that I was like, hey, let's sit and talk. Because it's a fun thing to do to help. create connections where like it may or not have been before just because we've seen so many different things at this point. you were, hold on. want to come out. said something about, my God, it was so delicious about, six months. I want to come back to the six months thing. And I really want to touch on that because you know, there's a lot of coaches out there and there and a lot of times like, we'll do this for three days or we'll do this or we'll do that. You know, it's like our three hours and that's all you get. And like, And people, think that people who are nervous about investing in themselves are nervous about this idea of doing a commitment for that long, like that long, which to me, honestly, six months is short. Like I typically will, I will work with when I have a coach, because I typically am always working with at least one type of coach on something, right? Like, so there's always something different right now. It's decolonization, but it's for a full year because it takes the first three months just for you to get to know each other enough to where it's like, you know, like You're able to, I mean, you obviously you see benefits from the beginning, but if you really want life change, like you've got to. So like, I love that you said that you work with you for a minimum of six months and like anyone listening, you're going to want to do 12 because the first six months are you getting there? The next six are the ones that you're like, but you're really turning it into the engine of your life. Right. So that you're like, it's just, beautiful. It's so delicious. I just wanted to touch on that. so yummy. You're right. So back to my onion you peel the onion in the first six months and you get And then you're right, it's the engine of your life six to twelve months and so more often than not I mean I've got a huge rate of People that stay on for more than a year usually so that makes a lot of sense But that first six months is critical It because that's I think that's where we confront the most of our I think the first time I went into coaching it was the hardest because the That's where you're literally confronting those demons, those, those voices, the saboteurs as it were, that are basically, I mean, they're trying to protect you from a danger that doesn't actually exist, but they're still trying to protect you. that's, I, I love that. So, okay, before we wrap up, I just wanted to make sure, is there anything that you wanted to share that we did not, that we did not get to anything that you were like, we were talking about that. And I wanted to come back to it. No, nothing, nothing around that. Just thank you for this. I love. I'm so happy for you and the success you're enjoying message you're getting out there. Honestly, this is so much fun And this was really great. I love thank you So it means a lot to me like I think you say that cuz you know This is one of those things where it's a labor of love and you kind of just do it and you do it and you do it You just hope that it inside. I love that. Thank you so much Yeah, you've got yours just right and you're an emersonian So I know right and look at that all of it all of it together and you from Plymouth It's like we're basically we know each other all our lives thank you. Siblings in another world. I, know what I am very woo. I totally believe in that shit. like, thank you so much everyone. The links for to, reach out to Karen will be on the show notes and absolutely do take that assessment. I'm telling you, I saw it and it's so, it's so fun. It really is. It's really fun. so thanks so much for coming on the show. my gosh. Thanks for having me. Thanks. Take care. psychologist I tell you things to make a list You've got special powers though You make me scared, you make me go