Stop Shoulding All Over Yourself
We all deserve a life of joy and fulfillment, but for many of us that joy feels elusive. We've checked off all the boxes and done all the the things that the blueprint of life says should make us happy, and yet - no joy. Turns out, being happy isn't about following society's blueprint, but about creating our own blueprint for what we want out of our lives and taking action to make that happen. For us to embrace that opportunity, we first have to let go of other people prescriptions for our life choices, and build trust in our own inner compasses. That journey was hard and long for me, but it doesn't have to be. Join me as we explore and build an exciting future based on what YOU want, and how YOU feel inside, unlock a life of joy and fulfillment, and release yourself of the guilt of not enough.
Stop Shoulding All Over Yourself
The Articulate Autistic: Navigating Neurodivergent Misunderstandings
In this episode of Stop Shoulding All Over Yourself, I had the absolute pleasure of chatting with Jaime Heidel(she/her), author of What Did I Do Wrong?. Her groundbreaking book is a must-read for anyone looking to better understand and connect with the neurodivergent people in their lives.
Jaime shared powerful insights on communication, unmasking, and the unique strengths neurodivergent individuals bring to relationships, workplaces, and beyond. Whether you're neurodivergent yourself or have loved ones who are, this conversation will leave you with practical tools and a deeper sense of empathy.
💬 Want to take it further? Jaime offers private consultations to help translate neurodivergent and neurotypical communication, making her a vital resource for families, educators, and employers alike.
CONNECT WITH ME MORE AT:
http://www.stopshoulding.me
https://www.instagram.com/minessa.konecky/
🎵 Thank you to Karacter for allowing me to use Telepathy (2005) in my intro.
This is one of my favorite albums of all time.
👉 Check it out: https://karacter.bandcamp.com/album/karacter
Hello and welcome to the Stop Shitting All Over Yourself podcast with me, your host, Manasa Konake. We are so blessed to have an incredible guest with us today. Jamie Heidel, the articulate autistic, who is also the author of What Did I Do Wrong? which is a guidebook for neurotypical people to be able to engage in a healthy way with their autistic loved ones. I actually find this helpful overall, not just though the book is written. way more for like people with whom you are familiarly close or friendly close. It actually has a lot of really great tools in there if you also manage autistic employees or if you are an autistic employee, a resource for your manager to be able to learn how to work with you better. You know, one of the things that comes up on LinkedIn all the time these days that I've been seeing and it's really, I think it's one of a very powerful message, which is that, You know, a lot of times the education around autistic and non-autistic people engaging together comes from either masking on the part of the autistic individual or like a here, this is how you're expected to behave in society or this is what you're supposed to say or this is how you're supposed to show up or whatever. And then you get the blueprint, autistic person, and then you have to be the one to make the changes, implement them and do the things. There is an initiative out there and a school of thought that says, what if we also educated neurotypical individuals, colleagues in the workplace, people in our lives about what some of these misunderstandings entail, where they come from and like how they can engage better with their autistic loved ones and or colleagues and or friends and so on. So I found her approach incredibly refreshing, but also really easy to follow. So as someone who's autistic, was like, my God, this is amazing. It explains a lot about the misunderstandings that have existed in my life over the course of the last, you my lifetime. And having worked with many autistic and neurodivision individuals in the workplace, I can also see how valuable this is for those of us both as employees and as managers. So. Without further ado, I'm gonna take you into the conversation that I had with the articulate autistic about navigating neurodivergent misunderstandings. So let's listen in. This podcast is really about, like I'm 47 years old. I was raised and socialized as a what? I'll give you a moment there to brace with that thing. You know what though? You know what? It is an autistic thing. It really is. It's so funny. Okay, so I would have put you at about 37. Well, listen, I've waited for Star Trek 47 year for a long time. I'm 44. And I get it. A lot of times people just it might, you know, now it depends on lighting and makeup and all that other stuff. But when you know, before I, know, Also, like I would have put both I would have put both of us in our 30s. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're like, we know nothing. We're still children. It's great. We're Sometimes though, I really do feel that way. I'm like, how am I a middle-aged adult? don't. I don't know. Sometimes I wonder like, how do I keep myself alive from a day like my wife helps me? Yes, I know. Same. Yes. Okay. So and I realized that because we're both autistic and we're both have ADHD that are we're going to go off the rails like a dozen times. No, totally. And that's actually sometimes that is the best conversations because when I meet somebody who's odd, HD like me, it's it's kind of hilarious because I had a really great. interview and talk. There is a woman Holly Blanc Moses and she has a podcast as well and her and I are odd HD both of us and the two of us were just going on tangents. But it worked. It worked as a really good presentation. So I can't get mad at that. Well, feel like also I'm a real I'm very spiritual, right? I got the woo in me. And so it's like the universe takes us where we need to go. Right. And so we just sort of go in that direction. So I, you said you got I the universe literally got me to unmask in front of you instantly. Because I started to get annoyed and I'm like, you should have seen me. I was all set up and I'm like, okay, I'm all set up. I'm ready to go. I'm, you know, the lighting's good. Everything's good. And then you're like, let's move this to zoom. It doesn't work. Okay, fine. So then I'm getting annoyed and then I'm like, okay, so I got to fix my background again, which is a tiny little space. And I'm like, now I'm getting, I'm like, you get to see me annoyed right away. So that's just, that's just it went out. Well, that's I recognize myself like I could see myself happening right there and I was like, God, I understand how I just did this. Like, but you know how it is like we talked about earlier. Here's the thing, right? And this is why I wanted to have you on the show. My audience is all people who either have someone autistic or a THD in their family. Or and this is actually a question about this later on. Like I thought about this earlier is because or they themselves say something to me. I've heard this, I have more times than I can count as I'm sure you have as well. My children are all autistic or having the HD or my spouse, but I am kind of sure that I am too, but I'm undiagnosed, right? And I hear that a lot. And I used to say that a lot. And I've read an article, this one place that said, know, we're gaslighting ourselves in that moment, right? When we're saying, because we're undiagnosed, some medical professional who honestly, what has the research really been on it? Seth hasn't said the stamp. we won't own it. Yeah. So a lot of our conversation today really is for my listeners who almost to validate, you know, like, so think a little bit about cause like validation is my jam. yeah. Well, your story resonated with me and validated my story. So I'd actually love to like, I found you on LinkedIn. Let's start with that. Did you appear out of nowhere? Like I did. I do that. You're just like poof. And I'm like, and then I was like, wait, hi, how are you doing? Cause you know, I don't like to be startled. but you were, brilliant and I you spoke to my soul and I was just like it took me less than two seconds to be like please be on my podcast and I went through down the the Jamie Heidel rabbit hole and and now I I'm curious to know tell for everyone who does not know everything about you like me I do now tell them what prompted you to write like tell us about your story and what prompted you write the book. Okay, so my story. my gosh. I, okay, so I am a Gen X, I'm in the Gen X category. And so I was a child in the eighties and nineties when, I mean, I never heard the term autism. I never heard autistic neurodivergent. Those weren't words that were used back then. And I'm sure people were diagnosed, but you had to be, it had to be very physically obvious, I guess. I'm not really sure how to phrase that. So I would do pretty well in school. But it was more like I would do really well in English or I would do really well in art, but I couldn't do math to save my life. that whole like, know, all autistic people can do math. No, I cannot. I am very dyscalculic. Calculate. I can't even say that word. I cannot do math at all. Math terrifies me. I have a phobia of it. And there were other it was that spiking. profile, spiky skills profile where I was really, really excelled and went way above and beyond in English. Like I want to say in third grade, I was reading at a high school level, but I couldn't do even the most basic math that a kindergartner could do. So we started off with the spiky, spiky skills. But before that, I actually went to, I was put in kindergarten at four and a half years old because they thought I was a genius. I wasn't. They put me in there and they thought, well, you I was very well spoken. I was very well spoken at a very young age. So they were like, well, she must be really smart and she can do this, that and the other thing. And they put me in kindergarten and I had no social skills at all, none. And so I don't obviously don't remember kindergarten. That was 40 years ago, but I remember kind of feeling like I'm very tactile. So I was probably, you know, really touching, like looking at the shirts and like, you know, you, I would probably touch kids shirts or their hair. or I had no sense of boundaries. Everything for me was a very tactile thing. But because I spoke well and I seemed like I knew what was going on, that you know what I mean? It's hard to explain. There was just this, I was just this walking anomaly. I was a walking anomaly in my family, in my, you know, as I grew up with, I didn't really have friends. I had people who sort of tolerated me. I had a few close friends, but they... They were, I actually ended up moving to another town. So the person I was friends with, the one person I managed to make as a friend, you know, I didn't really see her very often. And so I had people who were sort of acquaintances with me, but not really like friends. And I got into trouble all the time. I think that one of my memories, like the strongest memory I have from childhood is being confused and frightened. And I say that in the book, the feelings that I had all the time were confusion and fear. Because for me, and it could be at school, it could be at home, no matter what I did, I was being yelled at for stuff, but I didn't know what those things were. I knew I was in trouble, but then if I asked what did I do wrong, I wasn't told. People, because I was raised, I was raised by boomers, and that generation is, know, children are to be seen and not heard, and... there was all this respect. There was such, such emphasis on respect. And at my age, I still don't understand that word fully. I really don't. either. And I really struggled with that a lot is that I don't understand why should I respect you? I remember saying that it's like, you haven't done anything. No same. And then I mean, you don't want to know what happened after that. my God. I bet you do not say that. would be, that would be an R rated episode that we're not, or a big trigger warning episode that we're not going to get into. But Suffice it to say, I was physically and emotionally abused. I mean, I went through that my whole life. I was bullied mercilessly in school, mercilessly. Like, I remember coming home and saying, I'm being bullied, because that's the word you used. I'm being picked on, I'm being bullied. And when people think of bullying and being picked on, they think, well, you know, there's a couple of kids shoving you around in the playground, or they're, you know, they're doing, they're making fun of you. They're doing something, no, no, no. This was an entire school that had a campaign against me. People either hated me or didn't know me. And I tried explaining that when I was 15. And because it sounded so exaggerated and like it wasn't possible, people wouldn't believe me. And I was like, no, these people, like even the teachers can't stand me. was like, and it wasn't like I was going around doing something so horrible. It was just that I was so different and such an anomaly and I wasn't communicating or using the same language that I think, you know, looking back on it, that everybody got kind of an uncanny valley for me. It was like, she looks like a fish on candy Valley. You don't know that? okay. on candy Valley is a description of like, let's say, you know, when we look at human looking, androids. Yeah. Or you watch a movie like cats with like the, I've never seen it, but the, like it's like, it's like AI, like it's right. So what happens? with the uncanny valley is that people who see something that looks human, but isn't quite that makes them incredibly uncomfortable. And it's a scientific term. makes them incredibly uncomfortable. what you're talking about. I've heard of the phenomenon before. I didn't know it had a name though, but like I know what you mean. Yes. makes people uncomfortable. Yeah. So I think that that's what I was, I think that's what I was giving off was like an uncanny valley. Like, like I wasn't quite human. So I was treated as a subhuman and that's That's the thing that I have written an article about this about the bullying of autistic kids where it can be so much more extreme because you're not even seen as a person and they don't even know like they're not thinking in their young brains like I don't see this person as human this is a very visceral very primal reaction. So can I pause you on that? Yes of course. I mean you're gonna have to if you're gonna get me to shop. No no no because I think this is super interesting right because like and this isn't like Hold on, me a sec. I lost my train of thought, it's okay. It's okay. your time. your time. This goes back to, you know, one of my big things for myself is I've been working on decolonizing myself, right? In many different ways because so much of like, it's really, so I grew up in Pakistan and I moved here when I was 22. And so it was very different for me coming to America because well, actually I moved here when I was 18 and I lived here for three months and I was so culture shock. I moved to Monmouth, Oregon. was so culture shocked that I went back home to Pakistan and stayed there for another two to three years. I grew up a little bit and then I came back and then I was sort of able to assimilate. But I worked really hard to assimilate, like really, really hard. And obviously now, like as an adult, you know, like I'm on the other side of it, I regret so much of what I did to like, you know, get to whatever. But the point is, it's like, I'm starting to like look at things as colonialism, capitalism, the patriarchy, all these things that are the, that are like, I call them the fore horsemen of our conditioning that like made us unbeknownst to us influenced all these things, right? Yeah. And the reason why I'm bringing this up specifically is because you know back in I think it was the 20s and I know I'm gonna mess the data because and some of the details but the actual is the the that concept where they were starting to rate people based off of their skull shape and their eye shapes and their and those kinds of things right yep and I was actually telling my wife the other day about how I feel like at some point I actually I wonder how much of our innate knowing we have lost about how to in exist in a society as a almost just as with our differences, right? And not like with our differences, like in the I'm tolerating you or you're tolerating me, but in a space of more like collaboration and community and love, right? Like that kind of place, right? And so I think it's very, when you bring that up specifically, I wanted to just name that as like a, as, like a consequence of conditioning over the years of Like people wonder, well, what does knowing that have to do with anything? You knowing our history in that way and like, that's what it has to do. has everything to do with it. Is that anyone who is different in any way and doesn't meet that, you know, whereas like that, like you and I would probably have just been totally normal. Like everybody, everybody's totally normal, right? Like everybody's totally Everybody's weird, there's no normal. Right. We would have just been doing, you know, things that were normal or typical for us and nobody would have. wanted to throw us into a ravine. So yeah, exactly right or well, there was a well outside my town, my city that that that so like so but that's a thing right like that is but it's but it's that and I didn't even mean to get into this but it's it's that level of and I've been thinking about writing about this or talking about this and I don't know how but it's a level of I don't want to say hatred but I guess that's the only word I can think of that it's it goes so far beyond bullying. It's like you feel like people want to destroy you and it's you become this target or the scapegoat and I think that it goes back to this idea that anybody who is different right it it it's a poem right they came first they came for so-and-so and then they come for so-and-so and then it's like eventually they come for everybody right it was obviously made it very clear that I was bullied mercilessly in school I think I forgot but when I so when I moved out on my own I moved on to my own very very young I was only 17 when I moved out And then I, you know, of course I had to go into the corporate world because I wasn't going to college. I, couldn't, we just couldn't afford to do it. And plus I didn't have grades, so that was fine. So I started going into the business world and I was doing temp jobs and I was doing, you know, what you usually do just like department stores and things like that. And, you know, if you don't have any, any credentials, you kind of start at the bottom and which was fine. But when I started to get into office work, because it was something I, it was just kind of easy to do. And I sort of easy. mean, I, didn't do very well in retail. So I tried to move into office work. And you know, I used to think that everyone around me and I do mention this in the book is that I thought everyone around me was something was wrong. Just something was just wrong with with their with the mentally emotionally, I didn't know what it was. But I used to think that it was just, you know, the people around me were explosive, and they would just explode on for no reason. And then I went to I would go to work and I would have similar things happen. And I think Probably by the time I was 24, I'm like, I think it's me. But it took me so long. And I was like, I remember having a conversation with a supervisor. And I remember just telling him, kind of with tears in my eyes and going, you know, because he was actually being very kind. And I was just like, I don't understand it. But people have this reaction to me. And I don't know what it is. I said, this seems to happen everywhere I go. And then I remember thinking that was the first time it ever dawned on me that maybe I was a problem. And or at least I was the catalyst. So, you know, I would, remember to, I started masking it around that age. Like I started watching what other people did and I started to copy them. And I noticed that they started treating me a little bit better. I was still very low on the totem pole, but at least they weren't actively bullying me or harassing me. And then I went up the ladder and I went, you know, not up the ladder. I kind of went sideways on the ladder. Cause I would lose jobs a lot, but I would go to different places and There was a place that really kind of accepted me. They were kind of quirky people there. So that kind of worked. But every, every job I had, I would either get, you know, written up, reprimanded, fired, told off. And, but my performance reviews would be good, but yet they would be like, well, socially or this, that, and the other thing. But I think the disconnect was nobody even through my twenties, my thirties, and then in my mid thirties, I had a breakdown and a lot of other things happen. But throughout all of that nobody ever my god wow precarious setup throughout that entire time of my life nobody answered that one burning question what did i do wrong and so i started writing i started writing about my experiences and then i started doing videos and then i i set up some social media and i i just it just happened one day i just started it and at first i was writing and blogging about natural health and then i i moved it over totally to the autistic experience Especially after I was diagnosed, I was diagnosed at 35. And then after that, that's just what I went into. And then I want to say a few years later, I started writing under the Articulate Autistic because as I said, you know, in the beginning of the conversation and talking about my life is that even when I was like four years old, I was considered articulate. I was called that all the time and said, well, she can't have this problem because she's so articulate. She can't possibly not understand this because she speaks so well. or because she reads so well. I'm also, I'm hyperlexic. am, well, I used to be, not anymore, but I used to be a voracious reader and I read well above my grade level when I was younger. it was just the kind of the contradiction in like, but you can't have these problems and be confused about these things because you're so well-spoken. So that's how I came up with the article Autistic. And then it's kind of spiral from there. I have my Instagram page where I do discussions. about three times a week discussion questions and I wrote the book and published it. wrote it, I started writing it in March of last year and then I published it in September of last year. So that's how we got to book. It's a long story. my God. didn't realize. Yeah, it's not even six months old yet. It will be six months. So here's what I, I can't remember how I found you honestly, but you're like, I started masking at a very young age. Very, very I've actually been masking my whole life, right? Actually, and so there were twice that I started masking. So the first one was when I was little, I can remember what it was, right? Like, and actually, I remember somebody said that I looked pretty, right? And I said, I know, right? Because they did look really pretty that day. Boy, was that a mistake? That was a I made that same one. I was told that I was rude and obnoxious and like, I was like, my God. And I didn't understand what I did wrong. And to this day, when I think about it, I was still like, but what did I do wrong? Like you said it, I did look good, but you're supposed to say thank you. And it's like, well, why the fuck were you complimenting me then? Was it so that I could say thank you to you or because I look pretty, right? But that was one. And then the second was when I was 11. So when was 11, I came out as a boy and I wasn't actually a boy. didn't actually understand that I was non-binary gender fluid, but. We didn't have that language then we had Boy George, right? Who was like really like, was like, I get you. I don't understand what I get, but I get you. Like everyone who looked like a peacock. I was like, I get you. Why do I get you? And so, but. I had a very similar experience. So I found this because you talked about the experience at work. So I want to come back to that because, and because I think we can talk about 800 different things, honestly. And so I want to like, make sure I want to pick the things that I'm like, all right, these are the things that I think are super important related to my audience specifically who are many of whom are leaders in research administration and who have people who have worked under them who are autistic or myself, like myself, right? Now I had a very different workplace experience in that I've actually been very lucky to always work with my sister and she is gifted at translating neurotypical to autistic. Ooh, nice. And she has ADHD and I think that, and she just also has many other gifts. so, I, so she was able to translate and then my, I've had a boss, had a long-term boss who also does not understand that she does this, but she's also good at doing that. good. We need more translators in the world. We do, we do. And that's what made me understand because I see people who I've worked with now and I've worked with who are on a THD and they, I'm trying to think of like how to phrase this, right? They manifest the same kind of challenges that you're talking about that really just needs someone to be able to translate that to them so that they can be successful. And the reason why I sort of want to go in that space is because, you know, you mentioned that your performance reviews were great. Mine are also always great. A lot of people who are on THD have a, their performance is stellar because as you mentioned, they are really good at whatever it is that they're really good at, right? Like we all have our own thing, but whatever our special interest is, we're really good at it. And so, I'm curious to know, like, what is it that employers are giving up by not learning the language of their neurodivergent employees? Sameness. The status quo. The way things are done. Tradition. Social hierarchy. Power. Secrets. Those are the things that they would be giving up if they employed more neurodivergent people. There's nothing wrong with employing neurodivergent people, but we tend to point out the elephant in the room. So if there's something going on that they want to keep under wraps, we are going to very innocently point out that it's there. I've done it. And people are like, you know, there is a social hierarchy that comes with the neuro neurotypical society has a different view on social hierarchy and I know as an autistic person, I didn't even know what social hierarchy was until I was in my 30s. I didn't even understand it. I didn't see it. I didn't know it was there. I I knew you had to speak to your boss in a certain way, but I didn't understand about like the chain of command where, know, you couldn't go to the person above your boss because you got along with them. Which is what I did. I no idea. So, but I think, I think, I don't think there's anything to lose by him. employing neurodivergent people. think there's actually a lot of benefit in employing neurodivergent people. But you also have to be willing to change. And this goes back to your talking about capitalism. have to go back, you have to change or be willing to look at, excuse me, introducing something new into the dynamic. And I think the reason neurodivergent people rub people the wrong way is because we will point out the elephant in the room, we'll be very direct with our thoughts, we'll just ask a question. And I think we're just, you think question asking wouldn't be this big of a deal, but I know that asking questions is something I've gotten in trouble with my whole life. Because instead of seeing it as inquisitive and wanting to learn and wanting to understand, which is the only reason I ever ask questions. Why are you authority? Exactly. are challenging me? Yes, exactly. And so if there's this thought about authority and hierarchy, and, you know, I really think that neurodivergent people are more collaborative, just in just naturally more collaborative people. So if you've got this very sort of staunch, you know, we do things this way, this is traditionally how we do it. And the autistic person were to say, well, why do we do it that way? I mean, the boss would want to verbally fling them across the room. because it would trigger something in them and make them angry. it's like, we're just trying to understand why it's done this way. But the neurotypical supervisor is translating it as, you're questioning my authority or you're questioning my knowledge. I mean, I was in my 20s and I was questioning people in their 50s and 60s. Well, why do we do it this way? But they were seeing it not as genuine curiosity and wanting to understand, they were seeing it as a challenge. And I'm like, I'm not trying to challenge you. So I think... I don't think they have anything to lose except for the way they've always done things and the way they've always done things isn't exactly the best. I mean, I don't know how to say that in a nicer way. Honestly, isn't like, you know, here's the thing, right? It's like they worked at the time, like all these, all of these systems processes, whatever it is that we were doing at the time, like we were adapting to whatever the circumstances were and now we know better so we can do better. Yeah. But I think, you know, but problem is, is that I think that so many, and I think this is a, This is something that I think is almost like I feel sad because there's a lot of judgment associated with, right? So like, I figured you were fixing some of the camera. let's say that there's like a, you know, I do ask you a question, right? And as a neurotypical person, you're seeing it as a challenge, right? Like you may also be seeing it as a judgment, right? As like, I'm judging you or whatnot. I'm not trying to do that. And so like we, don't. And until this moment, it actually didn't even occur to me that that might be happening. So like all this time I'm thinking about this and I'm like, well, yeah, okay. I can see why you'd be mad, but that's not what I was doing. And in the end, I tried to explain that and it really doesn't work. Right. Because the more you explain things, the more it sounds like you're making excuses. Exactly. And then more it sounds like you're, lying and trying to cover your tracks. Yep. right. Yeah. And so I think that's like, you know, I think that's something that's very interesting is that, you know, There's a lot of benefit to having a neurodivergent person, you know, and listening to that neurodivergent person and working with them because, know, we are in a space where everybody's talking about wanting to enact change. And the person who's going to point out those things is going to be the neurodivergent person because they're not going to realize that maybe they should keep their mouth shut because that's what society has said that you need to do, which is perfect. Yeah. You know, and I think that, you know, you mentioned that, you know, just to go back to what you said, I want to jump back to where you said that. please do. Your performance review doing good, you know, is, is because a lot of times if people are willing to work with someone in terms of meeting them halfway, like creating receptors to meet. So neurodivergent, neurotypical, creating receptors to like kind of meet each other in the middle. There's an opportunity for like a really beautiful synergy there. Yes, there is. But, I think that that's really where this book comes in, right? Because my wife and I, I, since learning that I was neurodivergent and understanding that I'm autistic, I've been, we've started following more people on Instagram. I've started sharing some, like, we're now starting to see the things that we always joked about as quirks of mine are just, they're just normal for somebody who is, has OTHD. It's like, my God, so totally normal, right? Yeah. And one of the ones in here and I just I'm actually gonna completely segue into something else because I realized what time it is and I don't want to miss this one because this is gonna be the one that my sister is gonna she hears that she's gonna be like, holy shit. Okay, okay this one when I heard this I was okay, so for everybody it's on page 50 because it's gonna fucking blow your mind like The breathing the breathing so I constantly am doing this thing where I'm like Okay. Yep. And I've had people be like, what's wrong? mean, nothing's wrong. Just breathing. Right. Nothing. Or, or it's so bad. You can read it. It's fine. But it's so like, you said the breathing and I like the breathing. The breathing. It was, wait, hold on. You said being bored. So we come off as being bored or disinterested. it's like, why are you breathing like that? you're sighing a lot. my God. What does the sighing mean? That's actually, was a really good one. I liked that one. The air hunger. Okay, so you talk about air hunger. Can you talk to me about, I used to think I was dying. I forget to breathe. Tell me what this is. I wish I could tell you what it was. I know that I have looked at there. There is a study out that does talk about autism and air hunger. If you look up autism plus air hunger in Google, you will find it. I'm not exactly sure what causes it. I don't even remember the study. My memory is terrible. But I know there is a scientific study that explains that there is a correlation. I know that I have really bad allergies. So breathing has always been difficult for me. You know, I used to breathe through my nose and all this stuff. I love stranger things, but I hate that. my god, me too. I'm like, I'm a mouth breather, stop. But I'm a mouth breather, so stop. You know, it's so frustrating. I'm like, OK, fine. Pick on people with allergies, whatever. Because seriously, we're mouth breathers and it's not bad. No, it's not bad. But I mean, it was the 80s. Everything was bad. Remember? mean, my God, it was. No, except smoking. Smoking was real. But then when we know better, we do better. Right. So the mouth breather thing always bothers me. That's fine. I can't, you know, I got to think about it. I'm with you too. But I just want to like, I remember being I remember being a child or ever teenager, especially. I for one, like I said, allergies can't breathe. But I am somebody who is constantly needing to fill my lungs. Like I need to feel that expanse. That could be a sensory thing too, but I need to feel that expanse. And I feel like I'm never getting out of there. Now. I don't know if it's, I don't have asthma as far as I know, but I'm not exactly sure what the mechanism is. But like you said, you forget to breathe. I forget to breathe or I breathe very, very, very shallowly and I don't realize I'm doing it. And then all of sudden I take a really deep breath, but I've always breathed that way. And Another thing that I say, and I say this a lot in the book is when you're going to tell somebody what they did wrong or what they did wrong, mean, breathing is not wrong. But when you're to tell somebody what they're talking about, you got to tell them what they did. Don't skip over that because, know, like we I know that I probably used to sign, I'd be like, whatever. And somebody would turn around, what's your problem? And I didn't know what they were responding to. I didn't know. I never made the connection to how I just breathed. to what they were saying because I didn't realize I was sighing. That was just then we registered that, right? Like, I only registered it when 800 people pointed out, and I'm like, yeah, Right, and I was like, You think, I don't understand. What are you talking about? So nobody would say, Jamie, you just sighed until someone fondly said it. And I was like, yes, I did. Well, why do you keep sighing so deeply like that? I don't know. Like, I never noticed it. That's just how I breathe. And I think, and I think I say, I think I said this in the book too. said, there was somebody that I was friends with in camp who thought I was flirting with them because I was signing. you were like, what? there is that line where people like, it's like the, with the mixed matches where people are flirting with you and you don't know it or they think. Right. No, and I never know that, but people even took my breathing as meaning I was flirting and like. Well, no one was a great 80s. Okay, the heaving bosom. I don't have a bosom. I think that, you know, you know, what has been really helpful for me and you know, and I realized now that we're sort of at the end, I try to keep these under an hour or so we're nearing the end and I've had so much fun. First of all, like I like I have no idea how it's gonna go. And I knew it was gonna be fun because we're both out THD. So this is all over the place. But I feel like this book is, I was talking about my wife and I, and one of the things early on in our relationship, we almost like, she was supposed to be a one night stand, honestly. She came over and we both didn't know at the time we were lesbians, right? Cause she hadn't come out yet. And so we U-hauled, she never left. She just moved in and it was like, that was it. And I didn't even know there was a thing until years later, we came out as lesbians like, you all, I'm like, yeah, okay, great. But we almost didn't make it past that original first couple years because of all of the miss there were so many misunderstandings. It was absolutely insane. And at the time I actually didn't even understand. I didn't know I was autistic at the time. But we started what exactly what you're talking about related to something else, which was name the thing and describe the feeling and then say what the other action is right just because I may not understand what you were expecting. out of that act, because when you say I was just breathing, well, the other could add the following question is, what do you expect breathing to be like, right? Like, what is breathing supposed to be like, right? and so now you're listening to me and you're like, that's not how I breathe. And then now you have a conversation about how weird it is that people breathe so differently. And now you have like a completely different experience of it as opposed to one. And so our conversations again, started with more of what you were saying, curiosity. Right. And I think that that's the big difference between neurotypical and neurodivergent is that neurotypical is very tense. And I don't mean that people are judgy. They're more afraid of being judged. Yeah. And neurodivergent is more about curiosity. Right. Because and so we'll ask the question. We're not worried about judging someone or feeling like they're going to be judged because this has nothing to do with judgment. I'm just literally just asking a question. Right. that like there is a translation matrix that's almost necessary of assuming that the person that you're with has best intentions. Right. But like, can just assume there's nothing wrong unless you tell me there's something wrong. Right. I love how this is a blueprint to create a translation. for anyone. now as adults, she and I now know this. And so this now is basically like, here, babe, this is how you get to know me, right? In a way that you didn't before, which is really exciting. It's an exciting way to get to know your parents, your kids, your siblings, your employees. And it's so accessible. Like, I love how you wrote this. Like it's written for, I literally read it laying before a nap because it didn't. You know how like it's so overwhelming like books sometimes they get overwhelming right and like this didn't feel overwhelming at all. It felt like I could read it and apply it immediately so I just want to thank you on behalf of like me and everybody who is your side. Welcome for writing this book. I am planning on doing just so you know I haven't really come out with this formally but I am planning on writing a work version of this book so specifically for the office. I love that. I'd like to already have a kind of a title in mind and I'm going to probably get structured the same way. but a little bit differently because, know, you're talking to supervisors and CEO of companies, but, yeah, I plan on doing a work version and a school version as well. But that'll be, you know, down the line, but I, those are my plans. That's what I love that. And the work version, you know, cause I wish that I had had something like that. Cause I, I might, you know, my, I tried to explain to my boss, I'm neurodivergent and so on, but it's Not all of us are educators, right? So like I can educate on a lot of things, but this is not one of them. And so I don't know how to advocate for myself and I don't know how to ask for what I need. And I really struggle for it in the moment. I'm very strong in other ways, but I'll be honest when I'm in a space where I feel like, what did I do wrong? Or like, I, you know, I'm suddenly four, you know? And so I don't have that. I mean, I one of my favorite things to do besides writing is advocating. So I do offer private consultations and I will offer, you know, it's basically translation. So like, let's say you're having trouble speaking to someone who's neurotypical, whether they're your boss or your family member, as long as they're open, you know, they have to be open, they have to at least believe you. I will translate for you and do that as well. That is such that I'm so glad you brought that up, because I think that that is something that a lot of people could use and actually as a complete aside. am so glad that you're writing that book for the workplace because I think that I haven't started it yet, but I definitely plan to do it soon because it's a lot of people have asked me, you know, have said, are you going to do one for I wish I could give this to my boss, but it's more the way it's written is more aimed like at family, friends, partners, that sort of thing. I mean, it can be, it can be used for anyone, but for like parents and stuff, teachers. But it's not specifically corporate. So have to figure out how to kind of translate that over to corporate. But yeah, I definitely want to because this is something that people have been asking for and it's something I love doing. So and I already write for a website where I write all about work related stuff. So I want to, you know, I do want to create a book around the same concept. And that's actually how I found you, by the way. So I honestly it's been it happened so fast. Like literally I found you like eight days ago. And I, an article showed up in my feed and it, felt like it literally spoke to me. I mean, that's just how I do it. Cause I'm like, my God, I love you please. Because we have to, my whole thing is shed the shame, get rid of the shame. Nobody needs shame about anything. And no one, I, and I feel like one of the parts of shedding shame is getting to understand each other. Right. And like there's so much shame with being like, I held so much shame being neurodivergent for so many years, not even knowing that I was right. But I had shame about the way I meant it manifested right like it's I was ashamed about 50 different things now I'm not ashamed of any of those things right well I wanted to ask you are you have you been in dbt because stop shooting on yourself is dbt language I don't even know what dbt is so no okay that's dialectical behavior therapy it's something that I actually did I don't not an advocate for behavior therapy like really but dbt for me was different because it I'm also Alexa Thymix, so it helped me to understand what emotions I was even feeling because I wasn't really very connected to them. And one of the things they say in DBT is stop shooting on yourself. That's what they say. That is a DBT thing that people say. So I thought, well, you know, that might be where you got it from. yeah. No. OK, so let me tell you something even more interesting. And I actually can see where it may have come from. So one of my listeners. named it. So I actually am shitty at naming things. I am very good at a lot of things, but naming things is not one of them. So I named things like a two-year-old. Like it's if it's a donkey, it's named donkey, right? I just name it what it literal naming. So I was going to call it, I can't remember something, the name was bad. It was very literal. And now actually that it makes sense. She said, no, you're not naming it that you're naming it stop shitting all over yourself. And I was like, my god, that's so good. And so but so but she I have no idea if her kid is autistic, but she may have gotten it or just done the DBT like for any reason. yeah. People do it for all sorts of reasons. It's usually not an Okay, it's like just a thing thing. Yeah, it's for mental illness. Actually, people with borderline personality disorder are recommended to do it. People with anxiety, OCD. But for me, just because I also have OCD, it was actually very beneficial for me because of my alexithymia. So they put me in it for a different reason. But because of my alexithymia, I literally the first thing that they did was give me a sheet of paper with literal cartoon pictures of faces, angry and sad and happy, all these faces. And I had to circle which one I was feeling just to get in touch with my feelings. And I went through my whole life not realizing I wasn't in touch with my feelings because I'm also a very emotional person. I cry very easily. So I never thought I wasn't in touch with my feelings. I thought if anything, I was overly in touch with them. But the DBT helps me to understand like, this is the feeling that I'm feeling right now. And I wasn't really connected to right now and being more mindful of the feelings that I was feeling. And then it kind of went from that to going into classes that sort of there's a book, I can't think of the book name, but sort of taught skills that I feel like you should learn when you're like a child, but I didn't have those. So it was like just learning how to process your emotions, how to have... I'm not thinking the right word, but just how to manage, how to manage your emotions. Like I didn't even know emotions could be managed. I didn't understand any of that. So I feel like I was walking around like a child my whole life until I went into that type of therapy and was like, I had no idea at all. I didn't know anything about emotions. And then I learned a lot. like I said, that's radical acceptance is a big thing for me. Just accepting myself for who I am completely. just that has helped me a great deal. And DBT, you know, the stop shooting on yourself because where that comes from is, you know, especially people like us who are very justice oriented is that, you know, people should do this and they should do that. And you get down on yourself and you get sad about the fact that nobody is doing what they should be doing. And that's where stop shooting on yourself comes from. it's like, expect, stop having such high expectations of other people, which is really hard for us, but they are not us and we are not them. And they're not going to act the way we do just. it's not gonna happen. stop, you know, basically putting so much emotional energy into that. And that's where it comes from. So that's where the title of your podcast. Well, I had no idea. You know, it's interesting. It's like, love how you described all of that. So I often say how I don't feel like I went finished adolescence until I was like 35. Like I was very old when I, and I was talking to someone the other day, maybe it was my wife, and I was saying how I have actually always been extremely good at Like my therapist was like, my God, you're so self-aware and I can abstain and I am really good at intellectualizing emotions and all of those. So, you know, there's a lot of, I think presumed connection, but I myself, and it's interesting that you're, you're the way that you described it. I've actually been doing something similar over the last five years as I started to get in touch with my emotions and things like that, but I didn't know that that's what I was doing. So I went through this exercise. But here's the thing, I think my therapists were probably guiding me through, because I have a therapist obviously, and I have been guided through it, but I think never once called it that, right? And so I think that, so as they've just sort of been making suggestions and I've sort of been doing the thing. And so the answer then I guess is yes, I have actually gone through that process of, because it's, I'm now starting to understand, I'm frustrated and that's why I'm getting angry. Yes, yes. Like before I didn't understand what this feeling was what I felt was happening was something would happen and I'd be like, right exactly. I couldn't even name the emotion let alone the response. absolutely and so it's so spontaneous to it happened so fast that it was like I didn't I wasn't able to process it by the time I was feeling it. Dude, this was amazing. You were amazing. I had so much fun talking to you. You know, if you are a parent or a teacher, paraprofessional, if you are anybody who works with autistic people, autistic kids, adults, teenagers, it doesn't matter, pick up a copy of What Did I Do Wrong? And it is on Amazon. Right now it is exclusively on Amazon. I apologize for those who don't have access or prefer not to use Amazon. It is self-published and it is the book to help you end those traumatic, confusing and frustrating misunderstandings you're having with your autistic loved one. I'm Maybe
