Stop Shoulding All Over Yourself
We all deserve a life of joy and fulfillment, but for many of us that joy feels elusive. We've checked off all the boxes and done all the the things that the blueprint of life says should make us happy, and yet - no joy. Turns out, being happy isn't about following society's blueprint, but about creating our own blueprint for what we want out of our lives and taking action to make that happen. For us to embrace that opportunity, we first have to let go of other people prescriptions for our life choices, and build trust in our own inner compasses. That journey was hard and long for me, but it doesn't have to be. Join me as we explore and build an exciting future based on what YOU want, and how YOU feel inside, unlock a life of joy and fulfillment, and release yourself of the guilt of not enough.
Stop Shoulding All Over Yourself
Believing in the Power of Maybe Burke
Join us on this empowering episode of our podcast where we sit down with Maybe Burke, an acclaimed artist and educator deeply involved in advocating for transgender and non-binary communities. Maybe shares her journey through the arts and how it carved a path toward impactful activism. Dive into a thought-provoking discussion that explores the intersection of identity, representation, and the transformative power of storytelling in advocacy. Whether you're familiar with the nuances of gender discussions or seeking to broaden your understanding, this episode offers valuable insights into creating inclusive spaces and the importance of visibility in the fight for equality. Tune in to be inspired by Maybe’s dedication to education and change, and learn how we can all contribute to a more inclusive society.
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🎵 Thank you to Karacter for allowing me to use Telepathy (2005) in my intro.
This is one of my favorite albums of all time.
👉 Check it out: https://karacter.bandcamp.com/album/karacter
sort of let's start off. want to invite maybe Burke into my my living room, as it were to the podcast. cannot tell you how excited I am to have you here. My wife is excited that you're here. She's fangirling in there. I love orgasms. not gonna be, we'll talk about it a little bit, but we're gonna orgasm stay though. Like the truth is we all love them and if you want to love them more, you go into so much awesome detail in this book. It is unabashed. But as wonderful as this is, I actually wanted to have you on today because you're an artist and an educator and you educate about some really beautiful. Right? Because like trans is beautiful, trans is gorgeous, it's magical, it's lovely. But like the journeys that many of us have to go through in the workplace and in terms of dealing with the environments that we're in is very, can be very, very difficult. And you educate in that space and that is difficult work. So I'm, I'm curious to know, you know, as you share, you know, your, your story, what called you to this work? Huh? My goodness. I mean, It's work that I need to be doing. When I was in college, was still choreographing shows at my high school. I was working at my high school while I was in college. And my former director was a history teacher and he taught a social issues class. And on his curriculum was the topic of gay marriage. And this is before that legalized in our country and he was like he was a gay man and he was talking to me and he was like I don't really know like I can't really like Teach this from my personal experience because then I'm like pushing my agenda onto the kids like you know and I was like I'll come talk to them. He was like He was like, okay really And I did And it did like unlock something in me and it like opened something up in me because I was able to see that like through just telling stories about my own life, I was able to watch students in the class change their minds. Like pretty directly. Then after college, I was working with a theater company and I knew I wanted to do like educational content around queer identities and things. And so I went to a training. that was mostly for psychologists and therapists, I believe. And it was just like a general, like LGBTQ competency. And it was so bad that I knew I had to do better. You're like, I can do this. Let's do this. And so what calls me to this work? Spite. You know what? I was reading something on this and nothing fuels people like spite. will like, will push you. You will strive for excellence. You know, and it is so true. Absolutely. Yeah, I was just like, see people doing this ineffectively and I saw me doing it effectively. And I was like, well, I got to just keep on keeping on. And my theater background, like my experience as a writer, like I'm a storyteller. And so like, I do have the tools to emotionally manipulate an audience into like caring about the things that I want them to care about. I think you know that it's more than emotionally god, absolutely, I just love how you said it. I was like, that's like the most amazing - I've struggled with the language because really that is what we're doing. We're influencing the people to I mean like that's - but you have to - it's a skill. You know - not everybody has it because some people will sit and read off of a book and you're like, my god, I'm not influenced at all. I'm influenced to fall asleep right now. Yeah, but it's A thing that I do as an actor, it's a thing that I do as a writer and all of those things. If you want somebody to care about a character, they have to fall in love with them before the bad things happen to them or they're just this sob story. And so that's the approach that I take to my trainings and with my education is like, I'm gonna be fun and cute and make you laugh and then make you think. you know, like I'm gonna be the approachable, fun trans person. When I was starting out, I was aware that most often I was the first trans person somebody was like meeting or seeing. And today that's not necessarily the case, but I am sometimes, I do have the opportunity to be the first trans person somebody likes and that somebody can like relate to. And so yeah, I do, I name in my trainings often that I am cute and That's - You're by the way. I list it with like my privileges, but it is because like I use it and I know how to leverage it. And I get results with it. I, first of all, I want to name so many things that you just did. I love how you owned that. You're just like, I am cute and I'm going to use it. And I think that like one of the biggest challenges that we all struggle with really is acknowledging whatever our gifts, wisdom, beauty, whatever those things are, right? And so we're reticent to share them. And so it makes us hard for us to have the impact in the world that we want to have because we're so busy fighting our own demons. And the way that you shared that information was kind of like, there's work done there, right? be able to sort of name it and I love it and I love that confidence. I myself am working on that for myself where I can say things and just have them roll off my tongue and be like, and because of blah, blah, blah, I'm blah, blah. And it's like, I want to sound just like that. So that's on my list. So every time I love having that here because so many of us don't have models, right? You just modeled it for us. And that's what's really important is that I can have a conversation with someone or you can have a conversation with someone about owning their awesome, but unless they actually see someone say I'm cute and I'm going to use it to actually move ahead. Great, right? Own the privileges you have and then leverage them. I love this so much. What a great lesson. Yeah, thank you. Question for you, actually, because you mentioned the story and that you're the first trans person that many people know, right? And that's true for me as well in that, well, I would say that because of the environment in which I work, I would argue that I'm the first out trans person. that a lot of people know. would imagine that there's a lot of positive people within the organizations that I work at. Yeah, I'm the first trans person people know that they know. Yeah, no, definitely. So the question I have for you is, in the work that you do, because I work in academia a lot and I went through all of your speaking and I've pulled them out in various different spots because the questions I had are related to, my God, you have the most perfect trainings because these solve individual problems that I've seen in organizations. And so one of the questions I have is that like, so there is a, so I was out in trans in the workplace. you there was a, there's a element of boldness there that's like, okay, like I have, and for me in general, I tend to be like, whatever, say whatever, do whatever, but that's cultivated. Not everybody has that privilege. That is the result of an enormous amount of privilege. And so the question that I have for you is, is what are some of the challenges that someone who is either out or not out in the workplace, what are some of things that they struggle with that would keep them from coming out or feeling comfortable even if the organization thinks that it's like, know, you have your DEI committees and we have our pride flags and we have all that. So what are some of the things that would make someone feel unsafe in an organization or uncomfortable? The limit does not exist. There's so many answers to that. It is funny. I mean, I am self -employed and so I wasn't necessarily navigating like an organization, but I recently did shift my pronouns and just like with even like my friends and family, I felt weird telling people there was a change. Like there is just like an internal thing that happens for folks, like having to come out, having to like disclose your identity in a new way that like regardless of a workplace just is awkward for people sometimes. Like I did experience that literally my brother called me at one point and was like, are you not going by they, pronouns anymore? And I was like, yeah, sorry. And he was like, my coworkers think I'm misgendering you now. And I was like, ooh, sorry. I just didn't want to call you. And he was like, okay, I'm not mad, but like, I'm kind of mad. so there is just the hurdle of just like the awkward social interaction of it all, but like I hated telling people those things and like I do what I do for a living, you know? Like it's like, it's a very interesting thing within the workplace. There's also plenty of barriers. I mean, I was talking about this with my mother recently that She never gave me an indicator that she wasn't going to be an affirming person when I was growing up. And still I was terrified to tell her things. Like you don't always know how far that rainbow flag is gonna go. You know, like somebody, and honestly for me, sometimes when somebody is like decked out in rainbow gear and stuff, I'm just like, is that all? Are you hiding something? Yeah, I'm like, what are you? beyond wearing this, you know? And so yeah, the barriers include like literal job discrimination. There are multiple states in our country where folks can lose their jobs for being trans or non -binary. And so like having to deal with that. There's also just like, I know when I changed my name, I was working like multiple random jobs and like different customer service positions and things and For a full year, probably, afterwards, my checks would come in under a different name and different people called me different things and it was just like so much paperwork surrounding it that honestly sometimes god, the paperwork is insane! Yeah! And like, systems changing over. And so sometimes it's actually easier for folks to wait. until I find a new job and just start a new fresh transition. And I know plenty of folks who do look for new jobs when they start transitioning so they can get a clean slate with paperwork and coworkers, you know, like across the board. If people don't know your old name, then you don't have to go through the awkward phase of who's calling you what and all of that. So I would say, yeah, like just like the awkward social pressures of coming show up in the workplace. And then there's also like, I often say that like a workplace is only as affirming as its least affirming person. And so even if you are rainbows down the hallway and all of that, if Fred in the corner office is a known transphobe, I'm not going to want to tell Sheila I'm trans because what if Fred finds out? Right. You know? I made up Fred. Sorry if you have a listener named Fred. Sorry Fred. You know, actually want to Sorry if you work in a corner office. You have a training that you do on this and actually I think it's one of the first trainings - Okay, so actually I want to pull back a little. No, I have ADHD. I'm not gonna pull back. I'm gonna keep going. So do I. We'll get lost. you talked about Sheila and Fred, those poor people. And I saw an interesting quote the other day, cause with the flags and whatnot, you make me think of this term ally, right? And I saw a quote the other day that said, and I can't remember, I'm going to butcher it, but it basically said, ally is not a term you can claim for yourself. It's a privilege that's bestowed upon you by the community that you're, that you support. And one of the earlier trainings that I saw from you was, unpacking privilege from ally to accomplice. And you're like, I see that in And it's a really, really good training because there are a lot of people who are, like you said, put the rainbow flags on and they're like, okay, I've done my, I'm an ally. But the truth is it's not really allyship as much as if I'm wearing flags more performative than doing actually doing anything beyond that, right? So I'd actually love to hear a little bit more about sort of your idea about allies in the workplace and like what you think, you know. Obviously there's an entire training on this so this is not something we're going to be able to cover in like a five minute answer but you know, you got time, can you do that? But if you could sort of elucidate that. Yeah, I talk a lot about the idea that like there's a difference between acceptance and support. Acceptance is passive. Like a mother didn't kick her son out. That's acceptance. Support? is a verb. That takes action. You have to do something in order to support somebody. You can't just say like, cool, you're who you are. That's acceptance. Support has to go a little further. In my personal opinion, allyship is acceptance. Allyship is letting people be who they are. And then I like to move folks into what does advocacy look like? And or what does activism look like? Like kind of like my tier two that I talk about in like that actually takes some effort that takes some sacrifice and that takes some work on your own part and then we move into like what is an accomplice like an accomplice has a negative connotation and is usually like but also like throughout history accomplices in social justice work have broken laws I mean the Underground Railroad was illegal, you know? And those were accomplices breaking the law in order to help folks find freedom and safety. And so, I talk in that about those kind of three tiers. I have allyship, activism and advocacy, and then being an accomplice. what, I'm not saying that you're a bad person if you're in the allyship corner and that you have to get to. being an accomplice because also like different social structures, like different like levels of privilege mean that you might not be able to always be in the accomplice spot. You might not always be able to sacrifice like everything and all of that conversation. But we need all of those things to exist at the same time and different people have different skill sets. I'm not an activist. I'm not. I correct people when they call me an activist. I have so much social anxiety, like I don't... Me too! I don't go to protests because I know that the work that I'm good at doing, I won't have the energy, like I won't have the spoons left to do the work that I know how to do if I'm wasting them at a rally. Like I... I'm not good at that work. And I know the work that I'm good at and I do that work in tandem with folks who are doing activism. love the way you approach the world. honestly feel like I didn't learn any of this shit till I was like in my 40s. I just have to be really honest like rock on. wish I like I'm like, my God, I learned so much. There was it's just beautiful. And everything that I've learned and a lot of the ways that I do think and approach this work and the world is directly from people who have been doing social justice work for years and years, specifically trans women of color, specifically black trans women. I have learned so much from organizers in my life, people that I've read from, and the conversations of how community and how intersectionality but togetherness saves us is the way that I approach that conversation. You know what's so interesting about that is because so four years ago, I, know, five years ago now it's April, 2018. It was like the rock bottom time. it was the beginning of five years ago. I know, right. It's like, geez. Uh, it was like a great rebirth that happened and so on. But in the last few years since I found you specifically, so you were a huge catalyst in my life. know, right. I'm just gonna tell her all this stuff on the podcast. This is why I got you on the podcast. So could tell you all these things and embarrass you. No, so it you. found you. I can't even remember how I found you, but I started following you and just by posting the kinds of things that you post, you made me question myself in many ways. Like I went through an enormous gross journey. And one of the things that I really started to do was exactly as you said, is looking to other, like looking to the teachers in our community. And what I found is exactly as you're saying, is that the black women, black trans women, and I want to name, thank you for naming that. I want to just name that there has been so And so anybody listening like and I will put a list of links for this in that I there's so many of People who have been doing this work all along they've been consistently doing it you learn from them and what's super interesting and And please support your black trans creators everybody send money to your creators who do this work Nobody gets paid to do this work send them money send us it maybe money, so I don't send me money. I don't want money but the you took what they taught right percolated it out and I heard it from you in a way that at that moment in my life I needed and I think the thing that I have learned from you, starting with you, was that there is almost like, it's the circle of life. I can't sing to save my life, but it's the circle of life of education, right? Where we are all doing this work. And so I think you said like, you're not bad if you're an ally. Like it's not bad. We need everybody, every piece, whatever. But I think there's a question to be asked there, right? Like, cause like if If I'm an ally, and I may say this wrong, so help me out here. So if I'm like, I'm gonna say the ally, right? But I don't do anything else, then what is my belief actually? Right? and I don't, this is like a therapy question, but I feel like it says something if you're not taking any action at all. And that goes to the point that you brought up, that is true, and I've heard that often, that like, you can't just call yourself an ally. You have to be called that. Like that has to come from somebody else because you have to do something to show it, you know? can't, like that whole... In like, was it 2016 that people were like wearing safety pins so people knew that they were somebody safe to like approach on the street if they like needed help or something? had no idea! And I was like, literally? Vanessa, literally that was like a thing that was happening around when Trump got elected, I think. okay. Yeah, yeah. I hid in my house after that. I had a huge safety pin on one of my jackets before I knew that that was happening. Just like as a stylistic choice. I was like, wait, that's just like a thing that like goths do. Like, there are people who have safety pins like down their pants. Like you can't just like start using that to mean something else now when that's been like in style for years. Like, so yeah, like there is just like all that like weird symbolism that people do to make themselves feel better. And I'm like, I have never felt better by posturing without actually benefiting somebody who didn't look like me. You know, like no good deed goes unpunished. Like we do feel good when we get to help people, but like I've never felt good because I like said that I was an ally. posted a sign, like I've never put a sign outside my house that's like a pride flag and been like, look at me, I did my civic duty today helping my people. Right. Like. And that I think that that's and I guess to, you know, taking that into the workplace, I think that's right. And you, What training was it that I did with you? I did a training with you. I've done a lot of trainings with you where in fact I went through once I found you and just did every single one that you offered. and so there was, and which one was it? it was the how to be an ally in the workplace. And my God, it was amazing. Like that train was so good. And what I liked about it was really talking about, so let's say I accept you. I accept you for who you are, but somebody over there is, you know, Ms. misgendering you and you did like a really great role play where basically, you know, someone misgenders somebody else and then you sort of did a thing where you said, hey, I believe that, you know, Manessa uses they, them pronouns, whatever. But like when you're in the workplace, it's kind of first, it's hard for the trans person to do that, right? Like to advocate for themselves. Like I'm bold as shit, but when people misgendered me, I just let them, I let them all. I was too much of a pussy to say anything. I was like, whatever. And nobody stood up for me. So I immediately understood this is not a safe place, right? And so I think that's and now again, every single one of those people is actually very nice, like wonderful people. So I'm curious to know, like, because this is what when you train on this, like, how do you navigate the best of intentions and like help people move to the space where they feel comfortable like saying, I believe they maybe use the she her pronouns now or whatever? Yeah, so similar to what I was saying with like the different tiers of like allyship to accomplish. Everybody has their own skill sets and everybody has different things that they're going to be comfortable doing. And so when I do those trainings, I don't tell you like, this is how you should do this. This is how you have to do this. Like, this is your script. I give people options because I know that not everything that's going to work for me is going to work for you. And so knowing that, yeah, not everybody's going to be comfortable stopping somebody in the middle of their sentence and be like, hey, I think that Manessa uses they, them, pro now. but you might be comfortable having a one -on -one with that person afterwards. You might be comfortable like doing it in different ways. And so I try to give people like a myriad of approaches there because also the person that you are trying to make change their behavior, they're gonna respond to different things. They might get really defensive if you do it in front of everybody and you might have a better chance if you do it one -on -one privately. And I like to give people as many approaches to that as possible. And also, it's funny, I'm literally working on a video that says this right now for my social media, but when you said they're nice people, they're people who are friendly and want everybody to get along, and a lot of nice people think that interrupting and correcting somebody when they've said something wrong is not nice. And what I like to think of, especially with gender and microaggressions, but across the board, if I'm correcting somebody, like if I'm offering somebody some support in updating their language, that's because I like them and I respect them and I want them to do better. I don't correct people when they misgender me. I'm luckily in a position where I don't get misgendered very often anymore. But historically, I don't really do it. And part of that is because, like, I don't wanna. And the other part of that is because you, I mean, usually these days, if you're misgendering me, you're not a person that's important in my life. so, whatever. But also, like, if I am to correct you, like, if you are somebody that I do sit down with and be like, hey, I'd rather you not say this, it's a sign of And so like when I do choose to have those conversations, it is like me trying to maintain a relationship with you and not cast you off. And so like naming a problem is not causing a problem, it's the beginning of solving that problem. so, Mike drop, that's gonna be a clip. Cause a lot of people, a lot of people do like, they're like, Well, these people keep like bringing up that they're getting misgendered and I'm like, right? Because they keep getting misgendered. Like they're already, there already is a problem happening and we can play nice and just like, but the problem is when you try to ignore the problem or you just like try to get through like growing pains, what happens is that the person experiencing the microaggression does so quietly and alone. And if we acknowledge the thing and let other people talk about it and everybody gets to kind of share that burden, and so it's a little less heavy on the person who's experiencing it, and we can address it faster and get rid of it completely, hopefully. Holy shit, that's so good. That is exactly, you know, I think that we are so used to being when someone is calling us out on something to taking it personally in judgment. I think it was about four years ago, five years ago during that growth period, my sister said something to me related to judgment. And I realized that I was harshly judging everybody, but it started with harshly judging myself. And like, I had to release myself of my own judgment inside. And then once those things started to go, then now there's just no judgment, right? I don't judge anybody, but it's. But we have to recognize that it's possible to name a problem without actually saying, I think you're a bad person and or like, I hate you or whatever. It's in fact, I love that we are framing because it's true, right? Like, why would I bother having this conversation with you if I, and in fact, it's even worse if I say, you know what? I'm not even gonna bother, right? Like, cause I have written you off then. Right. If I don't care about what you say about me. That to me is one of like the biggest insults can give my god, I know right! That is terrible. You know though, I think that one of the things that I struggled with when coming out in the workplace and you know, I know and you mentioned earlier that you I know that you do, you've been self -employed and done work in many different places but a lot of your trainings are in the academic area and I went through like the list of places that you've spoken and so one of the things that I found was that someone says blah blah blah Vanessa, she, her, like she said blah and I and I'm like maybe it's just the two of us and I'm like okay. I use they, pronouns. And then the conversation starts. Well, you know, it's really hard to use they, pronouns, blah, blah. And then there's the English language one, which, I mean, that one's easy to solve when I'm going go there. But there's a whole conversation that then turns into like a 15, 20 minute conversation about their experience with the terms they, them and why they can't use them and so on. And like, honestly, the reason why I correct people is because I just got tired of having that conversation and having meetings derailed. Like, it's like, dude, I don't, we don't need to... Talk about, folks, I'm just trying not to say dude anymore. It's not working great, but it's it's less. I'm using it a lot less now. It took me like three years to get guys out of my language, so I get it. guys, I've almost gotten out. My problem is that I have, I need a singular one, right? So like I say folks for plural, I don't have like a singular exclamation that I could just, dude, right? So I need some sort of a word. It doesn't have to be person. It could just be I use friend. Friend. Sure, we'll try that. I'll try that. So, I think friend friend. I don't we don't need to go through this whole thing. We can just say sorry They them and move forward right so I'm curious to know In all the different types of organizations that you've spoken out, know, say which ones are different Have you found that there is a difference in terms of? acceptance level comfort level the amount of times the amount of hour long explanations people will give afterwards in response to Yeah, I mean, I can't necessarily say that like this field has this response and necessarily narrow that down, but it usually depends. It's largely generational, depending on like the average age of your workforce. is mostly Gen Xers. I'm 47. I will tell you I miss gender myself. Okay, I have to struggle. Like, you gotta learn. Yeah. But it is, I don't like to generalize about generations often, but I do know that older generations are a lot less comfortable admitting when they've done something wrong. And that's where that comes from. It's not even usually about the person's gender. It's about the defensiveness over admitting that you've said something wrong. And so sometimes it is a generational gap that happens there. It also depends on the gender of the person and or like their social location within other categories of identity. If you are a person who experiences marginalization in any way, you are more likely to understand what it's like when somebody else experiences microaggressions because you're probably experiencing your own, you know? And so like I was gonna say, but I don't think I've ever been brought into like a male dominated workplace. which is telling. Like, I don't think I've ever hopped on a training and been like, where are your women? Because they're usually the only ones who show up. That's interesting. That's a little thing that I'm learning right now. Well, you know what else is interesting is I've actually, I, when I'm going on my own gender identity, I've always felt more comfortable in the company of women, but I'm gender fluid. And like, it's very interesting. Like, I feel like there's there's a paper here. Maybe there's a paper here. There's a definitely an Instagram reel here somewhere. Like there's stuff cut. There's stuff that's going to come out of this. Yeah. I mean, men are scary. It's a good point. Sorry. I lost my questions. I realized there's one more question. Like I, we've gone through, like, I just wanted to make sure I didn't lose it because I have under your bye bye binary right here and basics of gender affirming language. I want to make sure I got that in there. I was, I was not ignoring you. No, I hate when people look at their computer while I'm talking, it drives me insane. And so, and I did it, I realized, God, that looks so rude. I wanted to... I did not feel slighted. You mentioned about the, so talking about the binary, right? Like, I think that's one of the things, you know, I know we don't like to talk about, and I also don't like to talk about generations, but I do feel like, because I can see differences in terms of just how we were raised, right? Like I see that the Gen Xers, like the younger generations are being raised very differently from the way that I was. And I think that what you're talking about related to this not wanting to be wrong is or like this being called out is our conditioning from birth to sit down, shut up, be quiet, and you always have to be right or do the right thing. Right? So like now to be called out on being wrong, it's almost like a, it's a fundamental, like it's, you think it's something small, but it's really like, I'm rejecting you as a person at this moment. And I, you know, I feel I feel like we just did a little therapy here and I may be more empathetic towards people, you know, in the future as we have these conversations. But I do think that that's a challenge and so I'm curious to know, you have a couple of different trainings about this. You have the Bye Bye Binary and then there's a Basics of Gender Affirming Language that you train on. when you go into these, the organizations and you have these conversations, is it really about, are you, because you mentioned the binary isn't real, it's just something that we created. you know, however many years ago was it like 100, 200 years ago to like for, you know, for our own ridiculous purposes, sell razor blades, I think, to get women to shave their legs maybe. And so the question I would have is, is when you do these kinds of trainings, what do they, how do they, you you mentioned people change just right in the call. Tell me a little bit about those and how they go for you and what you enjoy about them. Yeah, so the fun thing with Bye Bye Binary is a lot of people have the idea that non-binary is this newfangled idea. that is just showing up in the past 10 years. And actually, if we look at human history, the gender binary is the new idea. Like that is the thing that we've introduced and there are plenty of cultures and societies and like structures of gender throughout the world, throughout history. And that's where not everybody's ready for this conversation in my trainings, but the people who are ready for this conversation, it's all linked to systems of power and often the ways that we have set up in a very white to kind of otherize and demonize that are a lot of the cultures and societies I'm talking about that like have those histories of gender expansion and yeah the term non -binary is relatively new. When I learned that I was non -binary I didn't know the term non -binary like that's how new it is like and The term is new, but it's describing identities and experiences that have been around as long as people have been around. And so, being able to come in with, like, history like that and show that to people and be like, what you were taught isn't necessarily always the right thing, right? Like, you were learning about the gender binary while you also thought Santa was bringing presents. You know? Also, dinosaurs are reptiles. Right! You also thought that Christopher Columbus just like, found this land. look! Land! I found it! And I'm like, if the same people teaching you about those things were teaching you gender, because we do, we teach kids gender every day, it's just what version are we teaching, don't you think that there might be a little more to the conversation than what people taught you? Like, don't you think there's a little bit more to go on? So a lot of my introductory stuff is, yes, I'm giving you information, but I'm trying to peel away as much information that you've been given that isn't necessarily helpful or accurate. And so a lot of, I mean, a lot with all social justice work, like before you can really learn, you have to unlearn and you have to be open to that learning. Because if I just come in and I'm telling you about trans people and it contradicts things you already believe to be true, it's not gonna work, it's not gonna compute. Like we have to first open up the like why that's not true. We have to show how that's not everyone's experience. And so yeah, I have a couple of different ways of trying peel that and it's not always effective on folks I'll say like sometimes in my trainings I'm like this person is not going to really get this sometimes though three weeks later something will shift and you'll understand it like my I always say like my trainings are the beginning of a conversation and then it's up to you to either hire me again like I do like having like ongoing relationships with clients or it's up to folks to continue those conversations when I'm gone. Do you work one -on -one with people? let's say for example, somebody at an organization is like, you know what, after watching, you know, seeing this with you, I actually want to massage some of this stuff because I have a trans employee and I really want to get better at managing or blah, blah, blah. Right. Would you work with them at one -on -one? Yeah, I've done that, for a long time and I've just built it in a more specific and official capacity that I do one -on -one coachings with folks. There's the leg of for folks who are exploring their own gender identity and trying to figure out things about themselves, because I've also done that with folks. I've worked as a mentor for like artists in that field and everything. And there's also a leg for folks who are trying to disrupt transphobia in in their family, like wherever that shows up and whatever that looks like. Because yeah, like a training only does so much. It is my career. Like it is my career. I'm very proud of the work that I do and I know that it's not the whole story. Like I do have consulting services that I can like have ongoing relationships with workplaces and the one -on -one gets to be really fun. Because that gets to be a lot more like specific and I don't have to like cater to how everyone in the space might be learning. I can actually just be like, okay, let's talk about what you need. Let's talk about the options that work for you and then we can unpack deeper faster. I love that so much. So I'll tell you. So my, found you and I followed you on Instagram and then I started watching some of your training and I watched them out in the living room and I'm like, You know, I've and it's funny when I look back on my life every signpost of transness was there like literally every signpost there right like to say hey and coming down to when I was 11 I said I would actually when I was 11 I actually said I was a boy but that didn't seem right either and Eventually, I figured out what it was, but I mean I was 11 it was 1987 or 89 so you know there really was no they're like no You're not you're just a tomboy. Okay, great. So anyway, I Come out to my wife. Suddenly. I realized I'm like shit. I'm trans holy shit I'm gender fluid. ended up on gender fluid, but what I didn't... What's funny is I expected this, but also didn't expect this. You talk about how you help people to figure it out for themselves. My wife's listening to you. She's listening to you. She's listening to you. One day she calls me on the phone. She goes, I'm trans. I'm a woman. And I'm like, of course you are. Does everything make sense now? Everything makes sense. Literally the moment she said it, I was like, of course you are. That makes... I'll see you when you get home. Let's figure out what we're doing. And we went up, started the whole journey and everything and you know, now we're like a year and half into it. But you, your, exposure to you is what started the journey so many years ago. So thank you for everything that you have done for us. Like I, you know, without even knowing it, this is the kind of impact maybe has on your life. that was all just beautiful. that, mean, so yeah, I used to do a lot more in colleges specifically and Before the pandemic hit, every time I spoke in a college, some student came up to me afterwards to either tell me that they are trans and that I'm the first person they're telling. Sometimes they realized it while I was speaking. And or they were like the trans person on campus and I'm the first trans person they saw with a job and like a trans adult in... the world. And I don't take that responsibility lightly and I know that I am with like a small platform that I have built for myself, I am that for you and your goal and a lot of other folks and it is it's one of the most beautiful things that I could ever be given in this world because it's that quote of she needed a hero so that's who she became. all I want to do is be who Baby Maybe needed to see when she was growing up and figuring out who the fuck she is. Because I literally remember a time when I was looking up clothing for gay men and now I'm like, bitch, you were looking for the women's section. Yeah, it's so fun. We had the same thing here. We went through every single category. It's just the women's section. Yeah, and it's so funny that like even until recently there were things that I like wasn't sure that I like wanted or needed and all of those things and Yeah, just being able to like be very vulnerable with my audience and with platforms and being able to like share that stuff with other people a thing that I learned I have the tendency people have this like these two tendencies that I think are I experienced both of them in different ways where One is the idea that like, I have this thought, like this is how everybody thinks. But the other one is like, I'm the only person who has ever thought this thing. At the same time, you can hold both of those thoughts at the exact same time. Depending on like what they are about, right? And so what I've learned in my work and just in my life, there is not a fucking thing that I've thought that somebody else hasn't thought Like, that's not possible. And what I have learned that I'm very good at, I'm very good at words. I'm very good at communicating and like kind of what you were saying at the beginning of our interview that like I'm very good at translating things in new ways for audiences. And so like, yes, I took things that I learned from black women specifically and I am able to like frame it in a different way that might reach more folks and might. make more sense to people in a different context than all of those things. Like, I'm very good at the communicative side of all of these things. And what I learned early in my career is that I need to talk about those things that I'm experiencing because a lot of people are thinking them and they don't know how to say it. Yeah. A lot of people don't have the language to talk about the things that I talk And so if I can communicate what I'm experiencing, it gives people the tools to be able to communicate that for themselves as well. It's why I have like a series on Instagram and TikTok that I'm sure you've seen that is called Hey Wurstie, where I like respond to trolls my gosh, I love that. And like that kind of stuff, like whenever I respond to hatred, it's never for the worstie. It's never for like the person who is never going to listen to me. But I use those opportunities with humor and different approaches. I use those opportunities to model how I would respond to these things. And I like to give people language that I use so that they can go ahead and use it. And that's true for people who are trans and non -binary. That is true for cisgender folks who want to learn how to respond when they see microaggressions. As much as I can give people scripts or options of how to and how people might be able to communicate about these things and how other people might want to learn about these things, then we can just keep the conversation going. A lot of what I do is just that domino effect. And you know what? We just got, you just perfectly did this. I don't know if you did this on purpose, but we wrapped right around to the question in the beginning is why do you do this work? Look at that. And now it's like why you do it, how you do it. It's beautiful. Maybe I cannot thank you enough for your time today. I'm going to put the link to your speaking page in the show notes and all the information. You want to hire her for your organization because everyone of my listeners are, well, all my listeners are in academic organizations or research administrators. This is a space where we're trying to get more people in and like in order for that to happen, we do need to create these more inclusive spaces. And I think that what you have to offer is so. special, right? Like these ideas are things that lots of people are talking about, but the way you deliver it is just so special and accessible, right? Like, no matter who listens to you, it's like, my god, you're a friend who's helping me figure this out! So, what are your parting words to your friends, gosh! No pressure, it's all good, don't worry about it. I thought I just summed things up very nicely, I was done. Here, you know, we'll go and buy the book I Love Orgasms and then go have one. Enjoy. no, I mean, the reason that I do this work is because I'm good at it. I'll be honest. Like, because I know what I'm doing. and I talk to, you know that I also am an actor, and when I was performing a lot more frequently, often other trans actors in particular would talk to me and be like, my gosh, I'm so sorry that I'm not doing more advocacy. I wish that I could be like you, like that kind of shoulding all over themselves of what they feel like they should be doing. And I love to be able to turn to specifically other trans women, but trans people in general, and be like, I do this work so that you don't have to. The reasoning behind everything I do is because I know what I'm doing. I've seen results work really well and it fills my cup. is something that does, like people ask me often how I like handle like how I self -care around these things. This is my self -care. If I can, if I know that there's a trans person in a workplace who is facing discrimination and having a terrible time, if I can make that person's workplace a little more affirming And if I can make that person's experience at work more accommodating and comfortable for them, that fills me. Like that is my self care. And so I do this work because I know how to and because it's all I know how to do. Dude, that was a great mic drop moment. this has been so helpful. I cannot even, like, this is going to help me more than you even know. Like I'm just take this and share it with people. who are in the workplace when they ask for help and they're not sure what to do, I'm like, here you go. Listen to my podcast with Maybe and it will help you. it's been so helpful. Thank you. Thank you.
