Finding Happiness at Work with Robyn Garrett

In Episode 88 of "Stop Shoulding All Over Yourself," Minessa Konecky sits down with workplace culture expert Robyn Garrett to dissect the oppressive dynamics often hidden within corporate environments. They explore the profound insights from Robyn's latest book, discussing strategies for employees and leaders alike to recognize and reform toxic workplace practices. Tune in for an enlightening conversation that could redefine your views on work and leadership, and empower you to contribute to a healthier, more respectful professional world.

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Transcript

0:12

Your voice sounds so silky smooth. You must have a really solid microphone. good. That is good news. That's what we're going for. It's like it's very it's nice. Excellent. That's great. How are you today? I'm great. How are you? I just I have to tell you, you know what? I'm glad we're recording this. Like I knew I was going to fucking cry, dude. I knew I was going to cry. I like I quit my job, actually. I literally quit my job this week. No kidding. Yeah, no, and I quit my job because I've been coaching for a long time. I've been around the block many, many times. And the stuff in this book is stuff that I've tried to, like, I've never seen it done like this. I think every leader, every employee has to read this book because it's only through reading this book that you realize that you deserve to be treated better. Yes, that's what I want people to know. So I just can't thank you enough for writing the book. I'm glad I'm glad you like it. I How are you feeling about the? Honestly, to be honest, I'm in a really like I mean you and I don't know each other so like coming at it you can be like, my god, they quit their job, but I I'm actually like a have so many things in the pipeline so many great things coming for me like quit and then I started reading your book and I will tell you I've only been able to read through so much of it because it's so traumatic for me because there's it's so real and you're so Direct like unafraid to just say, look, this is how it is. And this is what we need to, and you, you named so many important things in here. So I actually want to ask, and I would just dive in and fucking write in, Hey, Robin, I'm actually really curious. So what this, you must've lived some serious shit to write this book. So I'm actually really, I'm curious to know what inspired this book. Yeah. So I started making content. I've been doing leadership content for quite a while, but management for years. And I started doing my own thing. I went independent a couple of years ago and all of a sudden I no longer had to like navigate around the board's feelings and the CEO's feelings. Like I suddenly found myself in any unique position where I could say the thing that everybody wishes that they could always say. Whereas usually you're in the boardroom and you're like nodding along and you have to phrase things so delicately and keep in mind how this person feels and that person feels. I said a lot of people just don't have the opportunity to say the truth. And so somebody has to be out there to pull things in this direction and just say it more directly and clearly. And maybe this isn't something that everybody can achieve, but like, this is where we all want to go. This is the type of environment that we want to work in. And if we don't at least say that out loud somehow, if somebody doesn't say it. We're never going to get there. You know, I, you say that this is the kind of environment you want to work in, but I'm actually curious, like how many, I would argue that. So when I was in the corporate, the first time around, right? Like I really had no understanding of what was or wasn't a healthy environment or what I wanted or like, you know, you mentioned that you're in the boardroom and like, you know, that you feel like something is off or somebody's saying something, but it wasn't until I left, right. And then I spent 10 years doing many things, right? And I worked as a director in a small company. I did many, many different things, got a lot of exposure experience, did a lot of. internal work and work with coaches myself and so on to where then you go back to corporate and now you look in and you're like, I can see everything as it is now. And now I'm going to speak these things because I understand what is needed and I understand what to say. I'm curious in your experience, how have you found that this applies or that this plays out with organizations where people haven't, they don't even at this point, because they've been dealing with this burnout and, and the app, like the oppression for so long, they don't even feel like there is another way or that they're worth another way or whatever the reason is, like, how do you navigate that bridge? Because somebody has to actually believe or even know that it's there for them to want it. Yeah, you're absolutely right. There's sort of two parts of it. The first one is pretty much no matter where you work with maybe a very small selection of exceptions, that place is going to tell you this is the way thing we do things here. And this is right. And it is normal. So you better get used to it. We have all the power. bad if you don't like it. And it's the people within that environment that are going to say that and the structure itself is going to send you that message every single day. So over and over your entire career from your very first exposure, maybe even before you get your first job, you're receiving this message. This is the way things are. You're the problem, not us. Even though if you take a step back and you look at, okay, well, what did they create here? Did they set their people up for success? Did they set you up for success? Are they being fair towards you? The answer to all of those questions very often is no, absolutely not. So there's this really inverted power structure and it's like shrouded in secrecy and it's propped up by all of these pieces and all of these people. And it's all kind of working against you. The answer I think is you do have to know it yourself. And it also helps a lot to know other people who feel and like you do so you don't feel totally alone because they isolate you on purpose. That's the reason they don't share any salary information. That's the reason you're not ever supposed to talk about your performance review. Can't say anything about your boss without getting in trouble because they're isolating you and then they're holding all of this power and it's so that they can pay the bare minimum and take essentially no responsibility for any of the results. They can put all that back on you. So I think the first thing is to know like You're not losing your mind. You are trying to do two people's jobs in an environment. You're being expected to work around the clock to be available all the time to do like churn out these results. And if you make even the slightest misstep, they're going to chip away at your self -esteem and your ability to perform and say, that's all your fault. Cause you couldn't, you couldn't thrive. And that's what we're looking for. And so all that stuff about, you know, thriving in a fast paced environment, like that's not realistic. Just because some things have been normalized within the corporate space does not mean that that is a realistic way that a human can perform. You know, I love that you said that, that I actually, and I'm going to be really honest, I feel like you articulated this way better than I actually, the word normalized never came to me and I've used like 600 different words to try to explain it. And I'm like, but that's actually what it is, right? Yeah. People say what the way I typically say it is I hate, I hate when people say this is the way it's always been. Right. And this is why we're doing it this way. Right. I like, I'm going to adopt the normalization more because what we have done and it's so true, we have normalized this kind of oppressive behavior. I, yeah. I re so there's a, one of my coaches, Toy Smith, and she was one of the people who started me on this journey. and she did, had a, used to have a course for $187, which I was like, this is too good to be 187. And she turned into a mastermind. and it was business beyond profit. And it was about understanding how the history of chattel, how the chattel slavery influences, and then influenced every step of our evolution in business. And that we now are just all in the system that was set up like over a hundred years ago, just saying, well, this is just how it is. And I actually want to ask you, like, because I find this ridiculous. Do you find that people really say, or I find anyway, say it almost as if this is like some natural evolutionary pattern that this is just how work is, right? Like this has been decreed by our biological...like do you find that a lot? Yeah, I do. And what's really interesting is people's memories are so short, it really doesn't make any sense to say that. So I saw something else similar, and it was the, I think, the 100 -year anniversary of the 40 -hour work week, which was established by Henry Ford, like back in the days of the... model T and his whole philosophy. And what's interesting about that is that was revolutionary at the time, but because the thing that came before that was significantly dramatically worse, right? That was a hundred years ago, first of all. And then just because the thing you have to recognize is everyone who's currently in the workforce has come up through this phase that we've been in. Really our memories don't extend much further back than that. But if you were to go back one, two, three generations before this, the way that people worked was extremely different and go back even before that, right? Because then you're really not talking about these kinds of corporate structures. The Industrial Revolution wasn't really that long ago. And the way that that sort of operationalized people and brought them into a, you know, being a workforce, what was the workforce before that? It was different. Really different and so we've experienced this long drawn out period. I think people remember the 60s 70s 80s and 90s because those are the things that we've had exposure to and so when you as you go back each decade you can see pretty dramatic change. I'm happy that that's the case, but even more dramatic change is coming. A lot of people don't want to recognize that the change has occurred and so they're very stubborn. Sometimes I think it's just because I think it's not even their fault that they can't. reconcile with it because again, like that message was pounded into them by their family members, every boss they ever had, every company they ever worked for. It's tough because as we work within the structure, we become part of the structure. And so if we don't figure out how to break the cycle of passing those messages down, it'll just keep going. Mike drop moment there. Thanks so much on that one. That's amazing. Well, you know, and I love how you said that like we perpetuate it because it really isn't anybody's fault. You know, I think one of the things that I've I think that I find most frustrating and almost it makes me feel a little defeated sometimes, but like honestly, but that's usually in my darkest times. But is really that I don't but it also makes me understand the problems, which is that most most of the people that I've worked with have really good intentions and they're all really trying and everybody's trying hard to do the right thing. And I remember saying this in a meeting once I said, well, I guess we can all be really happy that we're all doing the thing that we're supposed to do. But in the end, someone is still suffering. Why aren't we solving that problem? Right? We're all just sitting here saying the works are all gummed up based off of all the various systems. So now we're all just going to sit here. Right. And it's like, or point the finger and say, well, why haven't you done this? And that brings me to actually something else that you, you, you said in the book, and I actually, you talked about how we try to sort of. We set up a structure of failure. Right. And I, and, and it would help me if you, like, I'm going to tell you what it was. And then if you could elaborate and kind of like restate it to make it a little clearer for people is there's like an, there's an infrastructure that is set up not to make you succeed, but to make you fail. And, and then when you fail, the blame is put on you for not being good enough. And, but like nobody ever sat down and said, I'm going to create this infrastructure, you know, but like that exists. Can you describe a little bit about how that looks in an organization and like, Like how, like why that's like how that happens. Cause like people will mostly be like, my God, that's not, that's not it. And they'll be like, my God, that is it. So tell us a little more so people can figure out if they're in that circumstance. Yeah. So first of all, I am, I work with leaders and in leadership. And I think it's important to acknowledge that because I'm going to describe things about the workplace. And ultimately what needs to happen is leaders need to take more responsibility and recognize that they have created this structure and that they are responsible for fixing it. And if they do not fix it, if they do not build an environment where relationships are based on trust, if they do not establish appropriate workloads and appropriate priorities, then they're going to fail not only at their goals, but also at creating a structure that can be successful in the first place. So the reason I bring that up is look at something like workloads. Right now, the way that corporations are operating and businesses really of all sizes, it's not just I hear this about nonprofits teaching all kinds of areas, healthcare. Is it's they're just testing out to see what is the maximum amount that we can put on people with the maximum amount of time without things blowing up in our face. And then even if it does blow up in our face, how can we then just minimize the damage maybe with a layoff or something and move on from there kind of ignoring the human capital damage that comes along with it. So. There you are caught in the middle of this because I've been in many boardrooms where we're taking a look at the expansion that is desired by the leadership team. They want to launch new products. They want to implement new processes. They want to do all these things. And maybe they have good projections on what type of workforce expansion they need, or maybe they don't. A lot of times they just don't. They just say, this is what we want. Now middle managers, you go figure out how to get this done. And then they start. loading up people's plates with more and more and more to do. And then maybe you have some turnover, maybe they fix that, maybe not. They're just experimenting with their current workforce to see, can we get away with this basically? And in large part, they do because they don't face a ton of consequences. Maybe the CEO faces some consequences if the product launches is successful, but it comes back to those people with the good intentions. Because I'll tell you, I worked in a bunch of businesses and I'm always responsible for hiring too. I hire good, hardworking people, people that care, people that fill in these gaps, even if they haven't been asked to, because I just feel like it's the right thing to do. And so there they are, they're absorbing and absorbing and absorbing and they're carrying things along and they're 90 % successful. But if they miss even a little bit, somebody comes back to them and they says, that was you, that was your fault. We need to hold you accountable now for your mistake. And listen, I'm all for accountability, but built in right there is a lack of accountability on behalf of the leadership and the managers for creating the correct environment in the first place, for prioritizing in the first place. They need to take that much more seriously. Wow. Like you said so much stuff. Like I was literally just hypnotized by what you were saying. I'm interested in your thoughts on what happens when you have a leader like this who is defeated. Right? Who's like, I'm doing all this, but the corporate engine or the engine that exists is just too big for me to have any impact. Like that's why I quit by the way. So, so I'm curious then. So like when you run into leaders like that, and I actually like, you're just, I'm so, I feel like this is the best call I've ever had. Honestly, this is amazing. Can you tell me how you deal with that? Like what should they leave? Like, what do you suggest? Are there situations where people can't be helped? organization. Sometimes there's too much that's stacked up against you. I do talk to lots of people who feel like they've been banging their head against the wall for weeks or months or years in some cases. And it's funny because I do on my TikTok channel, I do bad boss story time. We do these stories and I think it is sometimes sort of like the am I the asshole stories where it's always like you should get divorced. Right? In the corporate version, it's like, yeah, you should quit. Like, this isn't worth it. Get a new job. Because a lot of times, you know, in the past, you had to stay for a longer period of time in order to be kind of taken seriously, or maybe you didn't have as many opportunities because things were more limited, especially locally. But if you've really put in a lot of effort, you do have to at a certain point decide, am I going to continue here? And then there's some choices to make. One thing about the book is it ranges from small things to large things, things that you can just do 100 % by yourself, like communication changes. And then some things that are going to take the entire organization, like working on your carbon footprint. You can't do that by yourself unless you're a one -person company. And so I think it's important to offer all of those options because every single person has an impact on the culture of the organization. but you also have a purview. And if you try to go too far outside your purview, it is going to be increasingly difficult the further you get away. So you could say, I know the perfect way to change this policy, but you can wave that perfect new policy in the air over and over. And if the person who gets to decide whether they implemented or not simply doesn't agree, you may never win that battle and it just may not be worth it. I think sometimes people when they do leave, They feel like they're letting their team down, but I don't think that's the case. I think you championed for your team for as long as you could, and you did the best job that you could. And I, here's what I encourage people to think about. You were compensated during that time. Did you offer a fair effort for what you were compensated for? And almost always the answer is no, I offered way more effort than I was compensated for. And if so, like if you need to, you know, lay down your tools in this metaphor and move on to the next thing, it is perfectly okay to do that. That's such a great perspective shift. Because like, you know, okay, so I actually want to come back a little bit because you know, you mentioned that you work with leaders. So I'm actually curious. I'm by the way, so I sent you on Instagram, not on TikTok, but I the last three people like I like, like one of my friends I was talking to yesterday, she's like, I did all this stuff on TikTok and went viral and blah, blah, and I'm like, Okay. I really, everyone I like is on TikTok. So I feel like I'm, I'm now aging into the point where, you know, it's like I get on TikTok now. You would like it. I'm actually people who are trying to make the world a better place in some way. And so eventually whether they're going to do it individually, like, like you said, some of these things are something an individual could do just themselves, right? Like your communication strategies and things like that. Right. So at what stage do you typically start working with people? And then the other question I have is, is like, when someone comes to you, right? So like, we know this is a problem. And we're talking about it here, but I'm curious to know what is the problem that people, when they come to you, what is the problem that they actually think they're having or that they're struggling? And then you're like, you hear it and you're like, like, I'm curious to know what is happening on the other side of that conversation. Yeah. So, so my background, I worked in a series of startups from the early part of my career through sort of the middle of my career. I climbed the whole corporate ladder, you know, from my first management job up through the C -suite. And in the last couple of years that I was working for organizations that were not my own organization, I transitioned from working in professional services to actually working in management consulting with big giant clients all over the world. So I work with people of all levels from people even who are aspiring, like they're considering becoming managers all the way to boards and CEOs. And that, you know, gives me it's interesting because you're facing a lot of the same things at every level. Your experience might be different and your conditions might be different. Your team might be a little bit different, but kind of ultimately it all comes back to the same thing. Like your number one job is to build a good team and that involves hiring and coaching and working with your people, prioritizing setting conditions. Like a lot of that comes back and it's the same. The number one thing I think I see people understand is their issue. And I agree with them is burnout. They're trying so hard. They're working as hard as possible. And I'll share a story about me in a minute. And they're just not getting results. And so they're trying to figure out like, how can I move this mountain? I've been pushing on it and pushing on it. And so I quit the 5 a club a couple of years ago. I think like back in 2020, maybe this was before. The thing that I was trying to do personally was just if I could just keep waking up earlier, then I can get all my chores done. I can get my kids settled. I can get this thing done. I'm still at the office somehow at 730 at night. Don't worry. I can still take on more projects. And so, you know, I think there's a lot in that like hustle culture that, you know, can be enjoyable, but the message can't be just push and push and push forever. because basically we've now been trying to do that for 20 years. We started this do more with less movement. I would say it really came into full swing around like 2010. And so now it's been years and years of trying to do more with as little as possible. And it's exhausting. People are exhausted. It's sort of like a late stage, do more with less situation. Like once you've done that, forever and forever, like for, you know, a decade of people's lives, a decade plus of people's lives. They don't have anything left in the tank. And so if your boss comes to you and they start trying to push you and push you like crack the whip, right, eventually you'll just fall over, right? That's what happens when you crack the whip endlessly and there's never any rest or refueling. So that's something we need to be cautious of. Cause like I said, with the experiment, Sometimes they're just not going to accept because I think people give a lot of warnings and they say this could go wrong. This will happen if we go down this path. Yeah. But sometimes sometimes the consequences actually do have to happen in order for the business to recognize, hey, that didn't work. my God. The getting hit by a bus to find out what happens when you get hit by a bus. I cannot even begin to tell you how many buses I've stood literally right in front of me like, hey, bus, come get me. And then I'll just go stand in front of the same bus again. Like, my God, this is so fun. Let's do it again. God. Delightful. I'm curious actually, and I meant to ask this earlier or so, but you said something that like kind of reminded me of it related to, the bosses. and I'm not going to try to relate it to anything. I'm just gonna actually ask you because, but basically how much do you feel years ago? I used to be a workaholic, absolute workaholic. I worked all the time, 24 seven, burned myself out. I was all about the hustle culture and you know what? And it was part of my identity. Yeah. A lot of my identity was wrapped and we've all been conditioned to have the workaholic be part of our identity. Like I'm so proud. Look how busy I am like that. The fetishizing of, of, of busyness. I mean, it's only because my wife is so opposite. I got like, she's not like that at all. Like I met her and she was just, my God, her boundaries were like disgustingly good for around work. And I was just like, what the hell is wrong with you? And then she'd be like, you know, one day we'll retire. And I'm like, I never want to retire. I'm going to work all the time. And there's, we had so many like just our philosophies were completely opposing. But over the years I have, as I started to get unhealthier and sicker and sicker because of this, because you said we do this for so many years and what it really is, is you're like doing this for so many years, eventually your skin gets raw, you start to get down and it starts to bleed and you start to do serious damage. I went into the ER one time for my blood pressure and the doctor said, you know, your blood pressure would be better if you calm down. Just had to share that. And I was like, go fuck yourself. I was like, wow. But I was also like, my God. No. But part, a lot of that came to down to the fact that societal conditioning in every way puts us in a position where many of us, our identities are wrapped up in our busyness, our workingness and, or our job. And all right, like, so I am a research admin before anything else. I used to say I'm a research administrator. Like that's it. And you mentioned that if you go back several generations, right, you talked about how work has evolved. And but if you go back sort of like even further, right. So like there's there was like a bad time. But you go, I mean, but if you go back even, even further before, you know, you get to a point where we were living very differently. Right. And one of the things that I've been trying to think about for myself as I live more intentionally is what does it feel like to live differently, like listen to my body. And like, I mean, sadly, I barely know what my body wants anymore because of, you know, you just get so caught up in work all the time. Right. So I'm curious to know how much of all of this, the identity part is, do we need to work on? Like, is that, do you think that that's important to be able to divorce our identity from our work? Like, cause I, I struggle because I can see both sides of it. And so I'm curious, so what do you feel about that? And how much do you feel like the corporations and organizations influence maintaining that status quo so that we do see ourselves as our identity. So we see that my work is the most important thing for me and I'll sacrifice everything for that. I think it's pretty important and I think it's pretty complicated because again, we've gone through some different waves, right? Especially with what does it mean to be successful, especially as a woman? I'll speak for myself there. and say, OK, well, I want to be taken seriously from a career perspective, and so I'm going to try to do it all. And I think a lot of people, one of the reasons that they attempt to incorporate into their identity in this way is because they want to be taken seriously, and they're afraid that they'll be viewed as either unimportant or unserious or undedicated or lazy. And so it is fascinating to look at what happens when you sort of that belief into people like the number one thing that like would be the worst possible thing you could be labeled as is lazy and any possible thing, you know, any possible mistake that you could make your two minutes late. no, but it better not do that again, because we're going to slap that label on you real quick, which really does not make sense. And so I think we've gone into a phase where there was a lot of emphasis placed on career. for a lot of people, that was a way that people wanted to be able to showcase their value, the things that they brought to society, my ability, my knowledge, my prestige, right? And so all of that is there for me to latch onto. But if I latch too hard onto it, then it starts to fuse with me. And all of a sudden, it's more and more and more and I can't unfuse it or unfusing it is pretty difficult. to even attempt. Because now I'm very interwoven who I am with what I do. And for some people, that could be great. Like if you're an artist and you want to really fuse those things together, this is my identity and this is what I do, wonderful. Although it doesn't necessarily have to be the case even for something like art. Whatever your area is, I think ultimately you should get to decide and you should be able to look at other people's perspectives and then say, That's their perspective, but I need to decide my own values for myself. I need to decide what percentage of my time I want to dedicate to my work myself. And I have to find the balance that's right for me. And I want to be able to describe myself. I'm the one who gets to introduce me. And so I am the one who's going to write that story. And it's hard because every single person is going to thrust their opinion on you. They're going to bring labels to you and It's really hard to tune all of that out to not attempt to spring into action and be like, I can do it. But it's a process that I do encourage and that I work on personally because otherwise you're just stuck in this no win rat race that goes on and on and will consume as much of you as it possibly can. You said something so true there where you were talking about like, cause if you think about doing what you said where you're like, I'm going to come from my space of my identity and my own value, right? That means that I may show up at work at 8 0 8 or 9 0 8 or whatever, right? Yeah. And my boss may think I'm lazy and my boss may even say that I'm lazy. Okay. Great. Yeah. Right. But like, I know who I am and I'm comfortable in my own identity. You know, when I think about it though, like how do you navigate? and I know how hard this is, but like, so like I, and just so anybody's listening, like we said this in literally five minutes. But the amount of difficulty that this is to like do the actual thing that we're talking about is so hard. So hard. Like, so we say in the words, but, and I feel like, you know, we both, like you said, you've been doing this work. I've been doing that work. But I feel like even when, and I found this interesting when I went back to corporate America, cause I had all of this knowledge in like everything you're saying, I knew like, so I 100 % aware of it. In fact, I coached on it for a while, right? Like with, but, and I don't coach anymore, but like that's, that's how aware I was of it. But when I was in the organizational space, the momentum of the cadence of the organization itself will carry you along and will start to exert its influence on you to where your own pers - you will start - and you said something earlier, I can't remember what it was, but it was basically - you didn't say the term gaslighting, but no, you said something like you're not crazy, right? And I was like, my God, it's like gaslighting. It's gaslighting, right? And I'm not really sure where I was going with that, but I'm going to let you run with that now. No, you're right, because so when you go to work, whether that's in person or not, suddenly you're existing in a new place. And you go to different places and these conditions are all around you. So things like email, for example, email can be extremely time consuming. And we all have a different relationship with it. So especially in the corporate space, there's a lot of email expectation sort of etiquette and culture that kind of goes along with that. And that's just one of very many forces that exists around you when you're when you're working and also even now when you're not working. So all these things are kind of happening. It's very hard, I'll say, especially for me, I used to pride myself on my dynamism, you know, my ability to adapt to different environments. And then as I've gotten older, I've realized, you know, in some cases that's working against me and I have to try to figure out how to control that more because if I react to everything, I will give up all of my time and I will give up all of myself and have nothing left over. And so that's something in the last couple of years of my career that I've tried to be more intentional about. And it's, I have a plan, like an ongoing plan for what I want for the future. It's not easy. Some days I feel like I am doing a better job at it than others. But it is important to recognize, like, it's like going to a different country. Like, they speak a different language here, they've got a different schedule here, and I need to figure out if I can be okay here, does this work for me? If it does, if you can kind of navigate it and find some balance, perfect. And hopefully someone on the other side of that sees you, recognizes you, and is helping you try to... you know, achieve some stability there. But a lot of times that isn't the case. You're just having this whirlwind that's sweeping you up and it will sweep you away if it goes unchecked. And that happens to lots of people and it just feels confusing when it's happening. Almost part of the, I mean, as designed, really, it's a feature, not a bug. We are, as long as we're kept confused, then we will be looking to others. to give us, tell me what I should do. Tell me what the next thing is. And typically that's going to be your boss and your boss. I find, and I, I'm curious to know, right? Cause I think your boss, one would hope has your best interests at heart, but your boss is also part of the system. So tell me a little bit about that part, right? So now like, let's say that like you're, you're going in and now you're like, I hope that my boss is going to invest his heart is going to support me and do that. And like, I'm going to ask them what to do, but how are it? Tell us a little bit about how that boss is answering, like based off of like, and how that actually is not like, we may not want to be looking in that direction every time. And I think, you know, when you have that type of a boss, the person who's got your back, the person who's a really strong advocate and who approaches their relationship with you and what the team does with a lot of groundedness. But even when that is the case in most organizations, 99 % of organizations, you're sort of lucky to get paired up with that person and then they've got peers and they've got people that work above them in all directions. There's the CEO. It always goes back to when you get to a top of the organization, there's a cyclical structure where there's the CEO reports to the board and then the board instructs the CEO. And so there's sort of no end to all of this where everybody is bringing something to the table in terms of directives. So if you think about the way a lot of corporate jobs work at least. And one of the reasons I focus on corporate is that's my background and experience. One thing that's good about corporate is corporate has resources, right? So I can say, listen, you got to pony up more cash for salaries here. And I know that in spaces like teaching and healthcare, it's a completely different ball game. And that's why I emphasize that. Yeah, it really is. It's a totally different process. So in corporate, sometimes I just need to sit people down and say, you're being cheap here. You're being too cheap. Can't get what you want. We should say that in academia too. I've got, I've got, well, I mean, there are some things in common, right? But so think about this, right? The way that your job is structured, I bet a lot of people have this experience. They start disorienting and distracting you from before your work day even begins. So how many people they start at eight 30 in the morning, but at seven 55, you're starting to get messages or the night before you've received some messages. And now all of a sudden, like you said, in terms of like being destabilized, you're behind. And so if you start your day at your designated start time and you've already received the message that you're behind, the impulse you're gonna have is to attempt to catch up. And so this is, like you said, that's a feature, not a bug that is built into it so that from the jump, they're squeezing as much out of you as they possibly can because that allows them to not pay you more and not necessarily hire more people. Maybe they can get 1 .1 people's worth of work out of you. And if they do that for 10 people, they just got a free person and they view that as a win. And so you have to look at all of the factors and you have to look at the size and the scale. You're just one person in this whole big environment. And that can be true even in a startup. Like let's say there's only a hundred people at your company or even fewer. There's still all of these forces. So it's a lot to contend with. And so ultimately where I come back to there is you have to be cautious and thoughtful about protecting yourself. That's why, again, in some of those stories, it is like, all right, time to move on to a new job. Yeah. And, you know, the economy continues to change. Sometimes that's easier. Sometimes that seems impossible. But even if you say to yourself, OK, I can't move to a new job right now, like maybe there's something holding you in place like. You know you want to have a baby in the next year and you won't be able to qualify for FMLA if you move jobs right now. But so even if you can say to yourself, I know that in another year and a half I intend to move on from this position. I think that feels better because then you can at least have that internal sense of stability and and feel like you're being true to yourself and your values, even if sometimes you have to make compromises and what you're going to do today or tomorrow. And I think it's interesting, actually, you're talking about like saying that, you know, you may leave in a year or so on, right? You're right about the fact that like they're different in that there's budgetary considerations, I think. But what I, the thing that I think is, is the thread that ties through is that people are seen as commodities, right? And as, and they're not, it's almost like workflow is about out the dollar amount, right? It's about like, it's about the, what we're moving dollars around this person can handle $30, this person can handle this, whatever, we're moving them in, but the person is now just a number on a sheet. think so you're coming at it from the side of leadership, which is super interesting, right? And I want to come back to that a second, because I think there's also something super important for employees to read. But the thing that I actually decided to come at it from was how do you, if you're the person who's going to be staying in this organization and doing this work, okay, how do you now approach your work in such a way that you're erecting safe boundaries? And logistically speaking, right? You're prioritizing How are you and like, I have like a list of scripts and stuff that basically says, here's how you say no to your boss and like that kind of thing, right? Like, and it's really all about, do you have, actually, do you have scripts for your boss too? I don't, I usually have like, like principles and questions like guidance. Got it. No, and that's perfect too. If you did, I wanted to take mine out and pimp yours instead. I was like, no, we don't want to promote yours, but it's really all about because there's the part that you're talking about, which is that the leadership has to take action. Right? And absolutely. And we as leaders, this is our responsibility. But the reason why I think employees need to read this is because we also do not know what is acceptable and what isn't. Because, like you said, almost all of us came into work with very specific stories already written about what work is, what value is, laziness, just the whole thing. Like there's literally a dissertation you could write about what I already know about work. by the time I'm seven years old, right? And we bring those into the workplace. So in order for you to know where you're going, you have to know where that destination is, right? And for many of us, we don't know what good and healthy looks like. This is a blueprint for what good and healthy looks like. So I think that an employee reading this would be able to look at this and say, shit, my boss does all of these bad things in here that is listed. And you know what, I'm out, right? Or, you know, whatever else they decide to do. So I think it is really, I think it's actually really helpful for creating sort of awareness in that space. And I would be curious to know, do you have a lot of like, you know, your, your pot, it almost as if you're, you're the Instagram really does like, I was receiving it as an employee, right? And so I do feel like it appeals to both audiences. Do you know what your distribution is in terms of like your audience, employed leaders versus, non -leaders? So I don't get those numbers, but I can tell you from the comments that I see, I know it's definitely mixed. So that's one of the reasons that I clarify because again, the - One second, I'm gonna let the dog out because she's moving. That's okay. Sorry, go ahead. That's okay. I always clarify the responsibility falls on the leader, but it does not hurt for people to be aware, to know what they deserve, to understand and break down the issues. Because even if you are, you know, this is your very first job or you're not even inside the corporate workforce, that's fine too. It does not hurt to see the issues broken down and to have an ability to understand them. You mentioned the term gaslighting earlier. I think something that we've seen that's been interesting in the last couple of years is some of these terms have come into popularity. And the thing that comes along with that is people's ability to recognize when that's happening to them. And that's revolutionary because before it's not like that was happening any less. It was probably happening more. but then you have this set of behaviors to look out for and you have a label for it. And that can be really valuable because we know that's crossing a line. And so it helps to know when you've been exposed to something that crosses the line and to be able to say, I know what's going on. Cause most of the time you feel like you don't know what's going on. Most of the time you feel like you're just caught here in the middle and they're telling me this is normal and that the problem is me. And so I'm just trying to run as fast as possible to catch up. So I do work with both groups. I never put the responsibility on the employee except for to protect yourself and keep yourself safe and healthy. That makes a lot of sense. Cause like the truth is in the power dynamic, the leader is really the one who has the ability to make really impact, affect all the change. I mean, obviously employees have an enormous amount of what's interesting is I think employees have an enormous amount of power. I said, I said this, I was, I said, employees have so much power as a collective and they're like are you talking about a union and I was like actually I think I might be. I was like yes I think I am. You know one other thing before we start to before we wrap up because I realize I mean I just you're so brilliant and I and do you have a minute after this I actually wanted to ask you something. Yeah it's a delight to talk with you. and you as well yeah so everything that we've talked about is really about a very Difficult journey like very very difficult and like if you are someone who is in an environment like this I I'd like to ask how can you talk a little bit about the trauma and how like it makes so for me it took a team of people right like I'd already worked myself to death so I had needed doctors I needed I had to I had a spiritual guide. I had a therapist I had to go back to therapy. I mean, I love therapy so I went back to therapy I started to get coaches, like it took an enormous amount of will and intention to come back from the amount of damage that I did or that was collectively done together with me and society and everybody related to work, right? And a lot of this, I was complicit in it. I just, well, let's do some more, right? So I had to like work through that. So can you talk a little bit about the trauma and then also like healing, right? Like what are some of the things that people may want to do as they start to heal if they realize they're reading this and they're like, I told you I had a panic attack, right? So like what, and I have therapists, I'm good, but like, what would you recommend? How should they deal with that? So there, this really runs the gamut from the most traumatic traumatizing experiences to kind of like micro traumas, microaggressions, like little things that's just sort of like destabilize you. There's really, I think it's important to say, you know, some people experience harassment, some people experience. workplace bullying, and even situations that are full out dangerous. But even if that's not your specific situation, if you experience mainly burnout, a sense of losing your identity or of exhaustion, there's really this whole range of things that can happen. If you have an opportunity to decompress from that, It can be a lot to process because you can feel like you've lost so much of yourself or you've lost so much time or you've given away so much that it feels very confusing. Where do I even go from here? But I think something that's especially hard is many people do not get that opportunity. And it is extremely hard to gain that perspective when you're in the thick of it, because what will happen is the emails will keep coming. The work assignments will keep coming. You'll be asked to do more and more. And so you don't even have like an opportunity to take a breath, let alone to schedule a therapy appointment. I think that's a very real thing that happens to people. They need the support, but you know what? I'm supposed to be at my job from 8 a till 7 30 p Like, when am I supposed to get? I can't even get my hair cut, like let alone find time to go to a weekly therapy appointment. Now again, responsibilities on the leader to make sure that they are giving you the opportunity for flexible time. They're taking things into account. But the truth is that it's really hard. And then the other truth is that people are being forced to work longer and longer. We have fewer safety nets and we have fewer options. And so leaving the workforce is simply not a realistic option for many people. people live paycheck to paycheck. The majority of people live paycheck to paycheck. And that's just reality. I think sometimes we assign a lot of moral stuff to that. And that's just not helpful because it is the reality. You can, you know, listen to those podcasts that say you should have six months salary signed up, but please do email me if, if that's your deal. Congratulations. I don't know any people who personally are in that situation. And so, I think again, the simplest. most basic building block is just to be able to call a spade a spade and say, I see what's going on here. I see what I'm working up against and the like steepness of the hill that I have to climb. And even just standing at the bottom of the hill and saying, okay, I can start to figure out the tools that I'm going to need or what the terrain is like. Those are the things I think that make you feel sane and grounded. Absolutely. I love that so much. Do you have any parting words for me? Like, first of all, your gift, like just listening to all this. Cause I think that, you know, one of the most important things you said, I mean, you said so many important things, but was about the more we talk about it, the more people will start to recognize it in there. And that's truthfully all that's, I feel like that's all we, anyone can really do is just provide the, provide the exposure to the idea and the thing. And then everybody else gets to decide on their own, whether that's something that they want to walk through or not. But I really, really appreciate you giving us such an insight into some of these things. Is there anything that you... Well, let's start with, there's two things. One is I'd love to know if there's anything that you wanted to share in terms of parting wisdom, but then I would also like to know if there's anything that you wanted to promote or anything like just feel free to run that in there and just tell us how we can find you, what to buy, all the things. Sure. Well, I'll end on my sort of key wisdom, and this runs throughout the book. I think a healthy, happy work environment. a place where you feel respected and a place where you feel valued. And I find that if I talk to two people, a person who loves their job and a person who hates their job, and I ask them about those three things, it's extremely consistent. Like those are the places where leaders are either succeeding or failing. And if there's almost nothing that you can do, if you can tie it back to those three areas, that's how I think you can make a difference. And everybody can make a difference. It might be big, it might be small. But that's my, like I said, I usually don't have scripts. I usually have principles. And those are three principles that I feel are extremely important and simple. And you can tie things back to. And then, yes, I would love, please follow me. So I'm on TikTok. My handle is courageous leadership. And I'm on Instagram also now. And that's real courageous leadership. And then I've got two books that are out. One is Happy at Work, which is the one that you've got there. And then the other one, which is a little bit older, is called Be True to Yourself, the Personal Values Workbook. That one's on Amazon. Happy at Work is everywhere. So yeah, feel free. And you can always contact me too. Either send me a DM or send me a message through my website if you've got a question or a scenario. I'm happy to talk to people all the time. I love it. And this book's so good. So good. Everybody should read this book. So awesome. Thank you so much. It is so great having you.