Breaking the Mold: Redefining Professionalism with Dr. Sheva Guy

Have you ever felt the weight of a 'suit-and-tie' expectation on your shoulders? Dr. Sheva Guy joins me to unravel the tightly stitched seams of traditional professionalism, revealing how this standard can serve as a tool of oppression, perpetuating systemic barriers like racism and classism. As we share our personal narratives – her journey through the expectations of an Eastern European Jewish family to a champion of diversity and inclusion, and our candid discussion of mental health challenges – we lay bare the profound impact of these standards on those who dare to deviate from the norm.

The invisible walls within corporate hallways don't just define spaces; they often delineate who belongs and who does not. This episode peels back those layers, highlighting the importance of amplifying the often overlooked voices in change management, from Oracle implementations to higher education consulting. We tackle the perils of tokenism and the critical need for true inclusivity, where diversity isn't just present but is actively valued and engaged. As we recount tales of tattoos as symbols of defiance and academia as a haven for authentic self-expression, we underscore the importance of challenging stifling professional identities.

As we navigate the transformative currents of change management, our discussion turns to the paradox of organizations that profess a love for change yet resist it when it knocks on their door. Drawing parallels between parenting strategies and fostering agency in professional transformations, we advocate for understanding the 'why' behind change to mitigate natural resistance. And just as a free-flowing conversation can lead to unexpected depths, so too does our dialogue wander through topics like research administration, emphasizing the organic power of authenticity, and the potential for collaborative growth in our professional journeys with Dr. Sheva Guy.

CONNECT WITH ME MORE AT:
http://www.stopshoulding.me
https://www.instagram.com/minessa.konecky/

🎵 Thank you to Karacter for allowing me to use Telepathy (2005) in my intro.
This is one of my favorite albums of all time.
👉 Check it out: https://karacter.bandcamp.com/album/karacter

Transcript

Minessa Konecky: 0:10

Hi everyone and welcome to the Stop Shitting All Over Yourself podcast. Today I am here with Dr Sheva Guy.

Sheva Guy: 0:19

Sheva.

Minessa Konecky: 0:20

Guy, sheva Guy. Thank you, sheva Guy. I should have asked that question beforehand. This is actually the first time that we are meeting in person and Sheva is amazing. I met her because she invited me to. I saw a post of yours on LinkedIn and then I saw that you ran a group called this Is what Professionals Look Like, and I loved it, absolutely loved that group Fabulous, and I joined it and then invited everyone I know to join it. So I welcome, welcome, sheva. How?

Sheva Guy: 0:51

are you doing today? I am good, so the group is actually hashtag Inked. In, so it is Inked In. Oh, okay, inked In. Yes, inked In. So people ask me a lot. They are like is that miss Belle? And I am like no, it is Inked In, love it, love it. Inked On LinkedIn. Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Minessa Konecky: 1:08

Fabulous. So I am curious. So first of all, I would love for people to get to know a little bit about you. So let me tell you a little bit about my framework and how I approached the world just to, so we can sort of set the stage a little. I am autistic, neurodivergent Pakistani. I moved here when I was 22 years old, had a little bit of culture shock, and I am chronically ill, and it struggled a lot with maintaining my energy and health levels, and so that is the framework from which sort of like I have to live my life in terms of going to work and getting up every day and so on and so forth. I would love for you to share some of that as well with our listeners.

Sheva Guy: 1:47

Yeah, absolutely so my framework. So I've generalized anxiety disorder, probably like the first thing that I knew was a thing for me. Also, I'm diagnosed with OCD, so I've got GAD. I say GAD, OCD, ADHD, PhD, because I've got all the things. So I just had the.

Minessa Konecky: 2:05

PhD. I'm going to go get a PhD.

Sheva Guy: 2:09

Yeah, so I was diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder and obsessive compulsive disorder when I was younger I guess in my early 20s probably and I always thought like there's something else going on here. And once I finally got my anxiety in check, I got diagnosed with ADHD and I was like, oh my gosh, this is the missing piece that I've been dealing with my entire life. And then also and this might be a trigger warning for some, but I also am recovering from an eating disorder, and that's something that I do talk about a lot in terms of shedding light on, like what professional means and why I am inked and what is professional really really should be. So all of those things are what I bring to the table.

Minessa Konecky: 2:55

Yeah, I'm actually really curious because I would love to hear your perspective on this. Like what is professional? And I'm curious to know, like not how you see it right now, but like what? When people say that's unprofessional, like what do they actually mean?

Sheva Guy: 3:12

Yeah. So first of all, since they said I'm a lot of cuss, fuck professionalism, fuck professionalism, fuck all of it. Because it is this, it's this word like it is this word that nobody really knows what it means. It's so subjective in a way, but it's also so very clearly rooted in white supremacy. When I say rooted in white supremacy, I mean rooted in racism, classism, sexism, the patriarchy, gender on normativity, all of it.

Sheva Guy: 3:42

Because when we think about professionalism and the roots of professionalism and my perspective is in the United States, I've been in the Midwest, I've been in San Diego, I've been here my whole life and when we think about the workplace and are the traditional professional business workplace, very suit and tie, buttoned up, and who's allowed to wear the suit and ties, who's the one you know, who's in the corner office?

Sheva Guy: 4:12

It's the white guys with the ties right, and so that's kind of what I see. When I hear professional, I'm like that's what people see, right, and I've gotten I mean I've gotten in trouble for looking unprofessional and speaking unprofessional. And I think professionalism it's not just, it's a lot, it encompasses a lot of different things. It's the way we dress, it's how we present ourselves, it's how we speak, and all of that is 100% rooted in all in white supremacy again, racism, classism, sexism, all of that is where that kind of concept comes from. It's that expectation to form to the white male ideal and if you don't, and the purpose of it is, so we can like, so we can be held, so they can have power over us. It's like it's an oppressive system, right? So that's how I see it.

Minessa Konecky: 5:07

When I hear the word professionalism, or professional in the traditional sense, I guess yeah, it's so interesting because I think that, like if you were to ask somebody and say, okay, what tell me about you know, saying you're not professional, and you say, okay, what is professionalism? They'll say things like well, you know, you have to talk a certain way, dress a certain way. And what's interesting is that there's like a you made a post on LinkedIn the other day that I'm going to show the link with in the show notes that it basically showed the iceberg of racism or where, like there was like the top part, which is like the socially unacceptable parts of white supremacy, and then there's like so many things sort of under there. I almost feel like, if you use the iceberg analogy, there's the description of what is professional that goes at the top, where it's like you know the suit and tie and the way you talk, and so on and so forth.

Minessa Konecky: 5:57

And then, underneath the iceberg, what I think a lot of people don't necessarily realize is that, in order to say, have a suit and a tie, you have to have access, you have to have and like, and not necessarily just access to a suit and a tie, because then it becomes where did you get your suit and your tie from right which you know because, like it's, there's always another level of something that you have to get to to be able to achieve the level of professionalism. It's like if you look at somebody who is at like the VP, you know president level, you know who is buying $10,000 suits, right? That's sort of like the quote unquote professional ideal, right? Well, if I'm buying my suit from Phylene's basement, I may still be wearing a suit, but is it suity enough?

Sheva Guy: 6:41

You know it's a good point, Like professional enough, like it still has those levels Absolutely.

Minessa Konecky: 6:47

And I hadn't thought of that until you said that and I started to think about it. I was like you know what I was like? I'm starting to get a feeling about my 20 year old self here, because I remember buying my first suit from Phylene's basement and it didn't fit right Because and so I had to like, oh my God, I felt so awkward and it was absolutely ridiculous. So, okay. So I'm curious Now, when you first moved into the professional like a professional environment from school and you have a, you teach your teacher, you're a teacher and a consultant.

Sheva Guy: 7:13

So, yeah, so I am a full-time consultant, but then I also I also teach. Yeah, my background is in higher education, so I still say that I'm fairly new to consulting. I've been in management, consulting operations, consulting change management, in the change management realm for like a year and a half now, so I still like my core. I'm like I feel like I still came from higher ed.

Minessa Konecky: 7:33

Now did you struggle, Like, how did it when you were trying it when well, first of all, were you inked up when you first started in your career? Or did that like I mean, obviously we eventually all gain our tattoos over time Right, like, how inked, how visibly inked up were you when you started?

Sheva Guy: 7:47

Yeah, that's a great question. So that's, that's another thing, Like I'm so getting into this corporate speak thing. That's a great question.

Minessa Konecky: 7:53

It's such I can't get it out. This is a great question, vanessa.

Sheva Guy: 7:55

Thank you, I can't get it out of my fucking mouth. I can't like there's these things and I do have this. I have a series corporate wordy Wednesdays where I make fun of these phrases that I hear all the time in the corporate world Love it.

Minessa Konecky: 8:08

And yeah, so you can't be corporate now because, Okay, awesome, I don't know, sometimes it just slips.

Sheva Guy: 8:13

It just slips out. I'm like where did that come from? What does that mean? I'm like it's the devil on my shoulder from corporate. So I'm like, say that's a great question, say cadence, okay. So so when I first started, so my journey is like a little bit different into the working world because I, I got, I got my PhD. So I was in school for a very long time, right Like I was in grad school and I, to be quite honestly, like I was told growing up, like you know, I was raised in an Eastern European Jewish household and it was you either be a doctor or you're a lawyer.

Sheva Guy: 8:54

Dr lawyer, accountant, dr lawyer. No, that's what. I don't think that was an option. It was doctor or lawyer. It was doctor or lawyer, maybe. Maybe that has changed. I'm estranged from my parents so I haven't had a conversation with them about how that. I know this is like a total side conversation and I know we're riffing and I love that, but the amount of people that are like I don't care for your family, you're toxic and I'm done, is just beautiful.

Minessa Konecky: 9:18

It just so beautiful. It really is so much, so much. It is okay to ditch your family.

Sheva Guy: 9:23

Yes, people always say, oh, I'm so sorry, I'm like so great, my life is better, my life is better. Yeah, so I was. So it was like doctor or lawyer, and so I always, like, had that perception of like I have to get this higher degree. And you know, I went through. I changed my major 3,000 times, as one does. I was in psychology, I was in substance abuse counseling. I had did a stint in criminal justice for a hot minute because I was like, very like, I'm going to reform everything and I I mean, I was like 20. So, so I ended up in a doctoral program. It was an educational, community-based action, research doctoral program. I still had no idea what I wanted to do, but I was like I'm just going to stay in school until I figure it out. That's where I entered into the realm of participatory work and diversity and inclusion and I fell into that. So I've always had. So when I've got my first tattoo which one was it? It was this one. It's so basic. I randomly got it one day.

Sheva Guy: 10:27

I basically started getting tattoos as I made progress in my degree. So I was like, okay, I finished my first year, let's get a tattoo. I finished my literature review. Let's get a tattoo. I finished my comprehensive exams let's get a tattoo. So I was doing it at these little rewards. It was kind of like spattered here and there. It wasn't very at first.

Sheva Guy: 10:52

When I first started getting them, I thought they need to be places where I can cover them up, because I remember running on my nose pierced and I was still talking to my parents. They were like you're never going to get a job. I was like, oh no, no, we're going to get a job. No one will hire you. No one will hire you, no one will hire you. So that was always in my head. I was like no one will hire you, no one will hire you. You can get a job at a tattoo shop and that's it. I'm like that actually sounds fucking dope, but I'm not artistic enough to do that.

Sheva Guy: 11:19

So, yeah, I was getting these tattoos in places where I was like I can easily cover this up. I can easily cover this up. I remember before I had any of my tattoos and I was in my master's program, I started them when I was in my doctorate. I had my nose pierced and I was interning. It was actually really cool. It was a prison, but it was a rehabilitation facility as well. I worked with women and it was a really cool place to be. But I remember I still put a little bandaid on my nose ring. I felt like I had to. I looked like a fucking idiot but I had no idea I was 19,. Like sticking a little bandaid, so yeah, so that was the whole thing. So I always felt like I can do these things, but I have to cover it up. They have to be in places where I can cover it up.

Sheva Guy: 12:04

So when I landed my first job I mean it was in higher head Like it's different in higher ed it's, you know, we are burnt out, we're tired, we work long hours, but also like no one gives a fuck what you look like, and that's pretty cool. Like I do if I say this like and I love my job, I do love my job right now, but if they would pay me what I'm making right now, I would go back to higher ed in a heartbeat. They never will, but I just love that culture. I felt like I never had a moment in that life when I worked in higher ed that I thought I couldn't be 100% who I am. That's amazing.

Sheva Guy: 12:40

My honestly, like my, my mom travels. Like what are they going to do? Fire me, because they can't. Like it's almost impossible. I wasn't even faculty and it's still like impossible. Because if you're faculty, it's impossible, and that's the thing is. Like it wasn't, like I was doing anything wrong, like I was, I'm really good at what I do. Like I was really good at my job and I was like okay. So if I look like this, what are you going to tell me it's because of how I look or how I speak, because I am way better at this than anybody else who could hire for this particular job.

Sheva Guy: 13:10

So yeah, so I was working. I worked in grad affairs, I worked in faculty affairs, I worked in. I did a lot of diversity and inclusion, equity, inclusion work and I loved it and I never felt like I had to hide who I was. But it got to a point where, you know, I went from zero like I went from zero to three kids in three months. I started fostering my two sons. I had my daughter and I was like I need something else, I need a flexible job, I need something different. So I left and I went into. I had no idea what I was in for Because I had this luxury of being in higher ed my whole career. Yeah, so I went into corporate healthcare doing diversity and inclusion work. I got fired after two months for many, for probably many reasons, but like I didn't fit, and essentially I didn't fit what they thought professional was supposed to be like, and they were looking for a reason. So that was the point. I didn't even have my chest at the time.

Minessa Konecky: 14:00

I had I love your chest tattoo, by the way. It's fab. Thank you.

Sheva Guy: 14:06

I had my sleeve and after that I said I will not work for a place that does not see me as who I am and does not accept me as who I am. I'm not doing it. So.

Minessa Konecky: 14:16

You know, I think that's such a like a. It's seeing me who I am, accepting me who I am. You know many so when I first started in my career in the in the twenties, in in the 20s, now I know when I was in my twenties. I only had the one. I had, sylvester. I don't know if you can see me, it's like he's old.

Sheva Guy: 14:32

It's kind of hard to see, but yeah.

Minessa Konecky: 14:34

He's impossible to see, but he's really old now and he's also a little bit like covered up. But he was the first one that I got and I had the same philosophy that I had to be able to cover them up. You know, Boston has a. Boston in general tends to be very conservative in the in terms of professionalism and whatnot. I think that. So at the time there was definitely a ceiling. I couldn't move any further than a certain ceiling based off of the way that I wanted to show up, Cause I call everybody dude. So, like dude, everybody's a dude, right, Whether you're. You can be a chief, a president, and you're dude. You know you're an admin, everyone's a dude, Unless someone's like listen, there's a gender issue, Don't call me that great, Then I'll make the change.

Sheva Guy: 15:14

But it reminds me of Good Burger. Did you ever watch Good Burger growing up? Oh my God, it was Keenan and Kel. Like for all that, like total, like I'm such a nineties kid I was like. I always tell my kids like I'm a. He said I'm a dude, he's a dude, she's a dude, we're all Okay.

Minessa Konecky: 15:27

Yes, I'm a dude. He's a dude. I've actually seen that thing. I'm a dude. We're all dudes, everybody's a dude. Dude Like the big old bad grudges. Dude Like every dude. Dude Right, everyone's dude. Oh no, that's the other two Wayne's world.

Sheva Guy: 15:45

So, but it was.

Minessa Konecky: 15:45

Bill and Ted. For me, though I never was into Wayne's world, but I that's not soups professional, and so the the challenge that I had was that I was really good at my job. Also, there was an expectation of what people who are professional look like, act like, speak like, so on and so forth. And I remember when I didn't get a promotion, which at the time it devastated me, but when I look back it's honestly the greatest thing that ever happened to me. But it made me realize that, like you said, I will not be able to be who I am inside and also be here, which is this is for the for the hundredaus Galaxy SOUND tooling app. Like.

Minessa Konecky: 16:19

What's interesting about that is that that is how so many people of color feel in any environment that they're in. Yeah, I cannot be the person that I want. So when I was first start with, so when I first came from Pakistan, I never wore a job that here I don't wear my job, that is, I brought it with me. I love it, but I but I had a lot of friends who did want to cover their faces in their heads and they found it harder to get jobs because of their and so they could not express themselves for who they are, and so I'm actually interested. Because you do this. You do this work for a living as a consultant. So when you go into Organizations and you do this kind of work, what are some of the questions that you ask? You know, or you ask people to ask themselves because, like no one, most of these places think they're doing a good job, right, they're like oh, I've got a.

Minessa Konecky: 17:12

DEI program. You know, and I'm doing this and I'm doing that. I'm doing what you want, right? What are some of the questions that you ask people that make them sort of realize that, oh, you know what, what I'm doing Maybe isn't enough if they're like on the cusp, but they're still in that defensive space.

Sheva Guy: 17:29

Yeah, and I actually I really I need to credit this person, so I will send you the link, but yes, I don't know her pronounce name it's Daphina Lazarus, student. So there's this. It's a conversation I have it actually behind me Between diversity, equity and inclusion and justice. This is how I explain, because a lot of folks like think Interchange the term diversity, equity and inclusion. So this is one way that I actually explain what these words actually mean and distinguish them. Right, but what I really love, I love this conversation and so basically, what it says is so diversity is saying so who's in the room? Just in general, who is?

Sheva Guy: 18:08

So I always say picture a conference table, because we always say who's at the table, okay, so picture a conversation. Well, who is there? Who's at the table? Okay, so then Inclusion. So equity is saying and I don't want to butcher it so equity is saying who's trying to get into the room but can't? Okay, so this is who's in the room who can't get into this room. Inclusion is saying have everyone's ideas in this room been heard? And Then justice is saying who is ideas are not being taken seriously because they're not part of the majority, and so that's how I get folks to flip the script and I say okay.

Sheva Guy: 18:48

So you're saying you've got like this program, you have this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So part of you know this is like a random example, but you know we do, I do, I'm an Oracle consultant. So if we do, I do change management but we do Oracle implementations and so it's big like a cloud-based something like human resources, software finance offer, that kind of. I'm not a type person, but one of the things that I say is you know who's at the table, all the folks that you know. If we're I do higher right consulting, so we've got our staff, we got our faculty, we've got our grad students at the table, we got our administrators at the table. These are the folks that are at the table.

Sheva Guy: 19:26

I'm like, well, think about who's actually on your staff. Is your Genitorial staff at the table? Is your event staff at the table? Is your staff that's actually running this place at the table? No, it's the folks you would normally, you they would think of as being at the forefront, when they're not the actual, they're not all the end users, right. So it's thinking more critically and more holistically about who is actually here and who can't get here and why? Yeah, and it's critically asking those questions throughout Is, and I love, I love that that that exchange between, between diversity, equity and inclusion so to get really demonstrates not only the difference between them but how we're actually, how we're actually Typically so focused on that diversity piece like who is at the table that we don't think any deeper of. Who can't get to the table? Yep, who's at the table but don't feel like they're taken seriously. Who's at the table but doesn't feel safe to say anything? Yeah, so it doesn't matter who's at the table if the people at the table are being erased.

Minessa Konecky: 20:32

That is so. Oh my god, dude, that's like such a key area because, like, if you don't feel safe to speak, then you're not, then these people aren't actually at the table like they're, just they are. You could, you could take that person out and put a cardboard, cut out of whatever you want there, because if that person doesn't feel like they Can speak yeah, take a picture, but that's what they want to do.

Sheva Guy: 20:50

Take a picture of it and say look at our diverse committee.

Minessa Konecky: 20:53

That's and this is what I find really interesting, because that's where I think things are getting stuck right now, you know, as is the operationalization of diversity, because, like mm-hmm. So I read Do you follow? Oh my god, no motivate on Instagram she's amazing.

Sheva Guy: 21:11

I'm such a loser and I'm not on Instagram.

Minessa Konecky: 21:14

Oh no, that's amazing. Actually, I used to be like I was a social media marketing Coach and I hated. I got to a point where I hated social media so much that I literally shut everything down and just stopped. And so now, people who are not on social media, I'm just mad. Respect, because I'm like dude, you never got on it and so you don't have like the. It's not like. It has its tentacles in you.

Sheva Guy: 21:35

You know I'm saying yeah, like it's funny like I deleted my Facebook when I was a freshman in college, which is when, like Everybody which I know, which is like what everyone was like on, like that's when people were on Facebook.

Minessa Konecky: 21:49

And you were. You were off of Facebook before. Being off of Facebook was cool with a thing. Yeah, hello.

Sheva Guy: 21:54

I'm a fake. I'm an off of Facebook hipster like these. Gen Zers have no idea who they're dealing with. I've been off of Facebook, yeah, so I'm not like I actually do. This is actually really funny. I do have a fake book for the Ohio Renaissance Festival, but that's neither here nor there so I do they're.

Minessa Konecky: 22:09

It's fair, if you're gonna have a, if you're gonna have a fake book for something, it would either be that for me or Star Trek like right exactly.

Sheva Guy: 22:15

Yeah, so, yeah. So I don't have a Facebook, I don't have an Instagram. I watch videos on TikTok, but they're like lame, like mom talk videos, like parent talk, and then what else, man, I mean I'm on Reddit but like I'm a millennial, of course, I'm on Reddit, I don't do anything. And then LinkedIn I don't know how it happened. I just I just started writing shit.

Minessa Konecky: 22:35

Your LinkedIn game is fucking on point like.

Sheva Guy: 22:38

I'm no idea what the fuck I'm doing. I'm writing.

Minessa Konecky: 22:40

Oh, no, no, you're amazing, fab, I see you all the time. Yeah, no, instagram, no, no, it's totally fine. So, but she brought up this. She said something really like my opening, right. She said Quit trying to add color to your pictures, we're not a fucking crayon box. Yes, and I was like I know brilliant, right, and I think that what I'm. It made me, and so I read this on a long time ago and it made me. It was a. It made me really think about when these challenges are coming from. And it goes back to People are very concerned about the diversity part, but they're missing a point about why you want diversity, right? So it's like it's not diversity for diversity's sake, it's diversity because having a Texture of ideas and thoughts and people makes everyone better, like that's it. It's just that's. It's a simple statement, right, right, but they think it's to check a box and so it's not. It's hard to imagine why you would need to take any additional steps once you've got somebody on the.

Sheva Guy: 23:42

They're in the picture like they're in the picture and what's interesting is and I hate having to do this, but really what a boy like it is. It is empirically correct. It is facts that diverse people at the table however you want to say it that diverse people in organizations if you have a diversity of Any, if you have either you, your ideas are renovated. That's period. Yet the ideas are gonna be more innovative when you're going to do better and you're going to make other people better and Really what it is and the only reason I say it this way is cuz consultants like to hear this. It's the business case man like you, you want to make money. You need more people here. These, these white guys aren't gonna cut it anymore. They're not coming up with the diverse ideas. They're the ones that are saying this is how it's always been and this is how we're gonna do it, because this is what I know.

Minessa Konecky: 24:26

No, that's fucking sentence. More than anything in the world me Always been, or this is the way we've always done it. It's like I Can't, I can't even.

Sheva Guy: 24:35

It's like yeah, I'm the one that's like, well, why, why? Yeah, exactly reason, have you reassessed?

Minessa Konecky: 24:41

like I'm always gonna say why, I always like to ask the question. It's like, okay, well, if this is the way you've always done it, then that must mean it works really well. Explain to me how it works, why it works and what the benefits are, and then we'll keep doing it, and maybe it is the way we need to keep doing things. But just because and I think that's such a such an important, important thing to note is that anytime somebody says that, it's usually a red flag for me oh yeah, because then that means you don't actually know why you're doing something. Yeah, actually, I'm curious.

Minessa Konecky: 25:14

So you're, and I don't know how to say the name of your certification for change management. How do you say it? Proci, proci, thank you. I went to their website and I was like, oh, I love this, and then it made me want to do that. But I'm curious. So you go into organizations and now classic. This is classic because I've seen this in many organizations that I've been in as a consultant over the years, doing other things, not as a change manager.

Minessa Konecky: 25:38

Yeah, but like the statement I hear more than anything, is I mean I guess it would change, right, or is oh no, I embrace change, I love change, I'm, we're all about change here. All right, but then the behavior, because you know where I'm going with this. Okay, because they're like I fucking love change. And then like every single thing you suggest. So we can't do that.

Sheva Guy: 25:57

It's not like, it's like that quote, and I know it's just like cheesy, but it's like oh, I love change, you go first it's, and it's funny. And the thing that I'm really grappling with right now it's also so funny and not surprising, is you know, I am one of my, like, my niche is really trying to make sure that we're intentionally bringing equity and inclusion into change management, because in my opinion, they're the same thing. They're the same thing. Our equity and inclusion efforts are change management efforts. Our change management efforts are equity and inclusion efforts.

Sheva Guy: 26:30

It's a people thing, it's a people. It's people and change. It's just so funny to see how much because, like, pros say they have their methodology and it works, like I mean, it works, you know. But there's always things like I'm always like, why can be better? It can always be better Change management people. They don't want to change. They don't want to change either. They don't want to change their methodology. I'm like they're like, well, you, they're like we go into these rooms and say, like we need to talk about change and we have big picture and why people don't want to change. And I'm like, well, maybe we should change our methodology. How fucking dare you? We don't need to change. We don't do that, and I'm empathetic about it because I get it Like I understand. We're all human and we are resistant to change, and that is a fact.

Minessa Konecky: 27:15

You know, and I'm glad you said that because, like biologically, if we were not wired to hate change, we would not have evolved as a species, because we all would be dead. Because back in the day when there were only 1300 people on the planet, the fact that we could identify a change in the weather and identify that something dangerous was coming is what kept us alive as a species. But I think we try to pretend like we don't have that biological imperative and it's like we have to accept that we do not like change. We can accept that it's good for us, but we can also accept we don't like it and that we need to do some work to work through whatever that discomfort is. So how do you what are some of the things that you say? Or work with people to help them bridge that space?

Sheva Guy: 27:58

Yeah, I think and it's not, I don't say anything. And this is where you have to get, and it's hard. So you have to get people to get there. Yeah, on their own, you have to get, you have to get that buy-in. But you also have to make sure they know, like, if this change is happening, like it's happening, especially if it's like a tech implementation, like this is happening, so, but we need to figure out how, like make how it's happening as inclusive and as as people oriented and participatory as possible. We want you to be a part of that change and tell us what are you afraid of? How do we mitigate that? What are things that you're nervous about that you think leadership isn't ready for? Like how do we train them? All those things.

Sheva Guy: 28:47

And I kind of think about it and this is also going to sound silly, but I think about it where, you know, I'm trying to get my three and a half year old to eat anything, anything. Just fucking eat something. Just eat something. Like, instead of saying, oh, do you want to eat? No, if I say, do you want to change? Absolutely not, okay, but we can control how we do it. So I say, okay, do you want to eat a cheese stick, or do you want to eat a thing of fruit snacks? Because I'm a great mom and that's when I'm feeding my child, but it's like that's a fed child, is a happy child, so that's what's like. I give them the choice, so it's like you're eating.

Sheva Guy: 29:22

Yeah, like this change is happening, but let's work together to figure out how we can make it as painless and as much of an opportunity for you as it can be. How do we and it's that buy-in and again, I know that's corporate speak, but it's true Like if people aren't on board with it, they're going to be. They're either going to leave the organization, potentially because they're not going to be happy, or they're just going to completely dissociate and not do their jobs well, and that's what we want to avoid. We want to work with people towards change, as opposed to saying this change is happening and this is how it's happening. No one wants to be told what to do, it's true.

Minessa Konecky: 30:01

I don't. I, oh my God. I was an adolescent until I was 37, so I really don't like to be told what to do at all.

Sheva Guy: 30:09

And I'm currently dealing with, like the aversioning preteen, and it's a struggle.

Minessa Konecky: 30:15

So if you're like autistic, or then you have defiance right, so I have. I had a lot of defiance within me, like, or because it's like if I didn't understand why, right, so like you'd have an ADHD thing too, yeah. Adhd. You know I have, I have. I have what I hate to. I don't hate this word really Auti, auti. I fucking hate the word. I think it's a terrible word. I mean, I love my superpowers that I have because of it, but the word is just stupid.

Sheva Guy: 30:40

I know I see it and that sounds bad too, cause I see it and I'm like, can we?

Minessa Konecky: 30:44

really not. Can we have another word please? That's not so awful yeah.

Minessa Konecky: 30:50

So I can never remember which one is where my defiance comes from. But like, I have to know why and like, and a lot of times then it's like you know, then it's almost combative. You know now that I'm thinking about it, I'm thinking about your kids and I'm like, boy, are you in for it? Cause you've got the preteen who you know. If you have any neurodivergence, then they're then like they're going to be and you're going to understand it, cause you're going to be like well, I get it. I would ask the same question. So now I have to actually answer.

Minessa Konecky: 31:14

So you're like um, I love. So you know you mentioned corporate speak, which I fucking hate and you hated too.

Sheva Guy: 31:21

But there's a funny though it's also, but I think it's also the language that people understand.

Minessa Konecky: 31:26

So it's like it's something that, like, I've been thinking a lot about. I used to teach marketing and one of the things that basically everything's marketing. You know you're trying to market the cheese. Stick to your kid. The story I used to give was when my brother was little and he didn't eat when he broccoli. Right, and me saying you need to eat broccoli cause it's healthy, for you is not going to convince him to eat the broccoli, but me turning it into little trees that are running away from his sadistic desire to murder them got him very excited to eat the trees and they were like, oh, don't kill me, but he's like I'm going to eat you now. And it was great, right.

Sheva Guy: 31:57

So we got my kids to eat asparagus Like Bluey knows what's up.

Minessa Konecky: 32:00

Did he kill the asparagus? Were they like all yours?

Sheva Guy: 32:03

It was like well, my husband is. He my husband's a stay at home dad, so he knows more of the storylines and probably can recite every single episode when I think the asparagus was like a magic wand or something. I'm not really sure if this gets put on the podcast. This quote about Bluey and I get put on blast by Bluey fans. I'm so sorry. I haven't seen Bluey live on Thursday, though, so that's happening.

Minessa Konecky: 32:23

I'm very excited.

Sheva Guy: 32:24

I'm very excited. This must be a parent thing. So it's a kid show for parents.

Minessa Konecky: 32:32

Oh, I see, Okay. So basically the kids can watch it, but the parents can get something out of it too. It's great, got it Okay?

Sheva Guy: 32:37

I think anybody would love it. It's just a great show.

Minessa Konecky: 32:42

Fabulous God when I think of the shit that we watched when we were you watch. You must have watched Barney as a kid. I did, you did, I did. Yeah, my brother did too.

Sheva Guy: 32:50

I have an old puppet. It's a babybop puppet and my daughter fucking loves it. She won't watch it, thank God, but she loves the puppet.

Minessa Konecky: 33:00

I know, yeah, it is. I remember so vividly those days. But going back to what you were saying earlier about the business case, is I think that actually no, wait, hold on. I want to go to something else. First is the opportunity. I actually like that better. So you were talking about how, when you're working with staff, you really want to figure out how can we turn this into an opportunity for you, and that's actually one of the things that I talk about a lot in terms of when I coach or anything in general, is how can you turn whatever it is into an opportunity for you. So I really love this. Can we dive into that a little bit more in terms of, like, do you work with people? In terms, like, when you're having these conversations, in terms of helping them to navigate the bridge, Like, okay, this is an opportunity for you because, like, how do you help them shift that framework? Oh, I love it Delicious.

Sheva Guy: 33:52

It's so funny that you're saying this, because the reason why I laugh about the bridge thing is because I actually literally am giving a presentation today about so we have our and this again, this is a tech implementation. So we've got our project team who's implementing the technology, and we've got our end users. How do we get them to the project team, to the end? And literally the. I didn't create this graphic, but I still love it. It's a bridge and the bridge is change management. Like change management is how we get there. It sounds so cheesy, but it's true. It's like we can't. You know when I think about change management, how I describe it is. Let's say, there's this big change that happens overnight. You wake up all of a sudden, you're using a new software and that's it.

Sheva Guy: 34:31

No training, no feedback, no questions, no preparations all of those things is what change management does. And now I forget the original question because I got excited about the bridge.

Minessa Konecky: 34:42

Oh yeah, no, it was so like I'm sitting here and I'm like, oh my God, this sucks, and you're like, no, this is an opportunity. How do you, how do you help me see it as an opportunity?

Sheva Guy: 34:51

Yes, great question. So God damn it. I said it fuck. I said great question, great question, great question, thanks, sheva.

Minessa Konecky: 34:58

Thank you, I know I appreciate it.

Sheva Guy: 35:01

So I actually had a meeting with someone who and he was like the sweetest guy ever, such a good like, really a good guy, but he's like a career consultant and he, every question that got asked in this meeting, great question, great question. That's a great question. So, yeah, so what I do and this goes back to my doctoral days is my my doctorate is in it's not in a specific content area, right, it's in a methodology. It's inclusive methodologies and participatory methodologies. And so everything I do is rooted in participatory methods, and when I say participatory methods, I mean in research, because this is where it's rooted. It's rooted in research.

Sheva Guy: 35:45

What you're studying, the people that are in the population that you're looking at, they're the experts. Like we see them as the experts. They are the experts, they have the knowledge, they know what needs to change. I am a facilitator of that change. I've got a bunch of tools in my toolkit that can say these are the things that we can use to get you there, but you are the content experts and that's how I go in any change implementations.

Sheva Guy: 36:09

This is a partnership. This isn't me, the consultant or the researcher or whatever, swooping in and saying this is what's best for your organization. I know nothing about your organization. I need you to tell me. I need to figure out how to be immersed in this culture, and the only way I can do that is for you to be my partners in this. So that's why I do everything in a participatory manner, working together with people throughout the process. So I'm not just gonna say this is how we're gonna communicate to the organization. I'm gonna say what channels are best, what do people like, what do they need, what do they need for training, what does your audience look like? And they I don't do anything without that partnership. I'm never gonna be the person that comes in and says this is what's best for your organization, because I do not know your organization. You have to tell me, and I rely on you as that content expert.

Sheva Guy: 36:57

You have that expertise. You're the ones that know. I'm the one that can help you figure out how to get there. I'm the one that can give you a bunch of tools for training, but I need to know what kind of training works best for you. Guys, I can't, you know, I can get you there, I can bring these methods in, but I need to know what works for you. So I see myself as having like this arsenal of methods to help people make the change happen and see and get to that point and when people feel like, and when they know, not just feel like they're a part of the process, not just gathering feedback and saying, okay, we gather feedback for the sake of gathering feedback, like the check in the box thing, I'm gathering feedback, I'm taking that feedback, I'm using that feedback. I'm showing you how I'm using that feedback and how we're changing an event and people get on board because they are part of the process, as opposed to on the sidelines watching it happen.

Sheva Guy: 37:43

An example that I use to like I'm even participatory when I teach my classes. I've used, I've built my syllabus with my students before I tell my students what assignments do you think are best for you for this class. So a lot of it makes a lot of students uncomfortable. Why? Because they're not used to that. They're used to a professor coming in and saying this is what you're doing in this class, do this paper, do this, do this, do this, do this. So that vagueness and that ambiguity is really hard for them. But once they get past it they're like holy shit, I can make this class what I want it to be. Yeah, and that's what I do. And so when I gather feedback, like during, like halfway through the semester, I'm like I'm gathering feedback, I gather the feedback and I say this is what you told me and this is how I'm changing things because of what you told me and I'm showing you that yeah, and I think that's the key is making sure people are involved. I guess. So got so excited talking about this, oh my God.

Minessa Konecky: 38:34

No, that's amazing. I love it. So because you know one of the challenges that I had over the years I worked in many, many organizations who were not ready for the change that they you know, it's always software, so I do a lot of implementations, and that's why?

Sheva Guy: 38:45

yeah, that's what I do at my job.

Minessa Konecky: 38:46

Yeah, and they're almost never ready and they almost never want to spend the time necessary to be able to prep, to be able to have a good onboarding. And I think that, oh my God, dude, there is a fucking hummingbird right by my God. I gotta tell my wife Do it, I don't know, it's on the porch there. Sorry, I know you're good.

Sheva Guy: 39:10

We have a little hummingbird. Are we get so excited?

Minessa Konecky: 39:12

We don't see them often, so Neither do we, and it's so exciting and since she started transitioning, we've become crazy lesbians who love birds. We are like we are diving into our lesbian lifestyle. Like I just watched a video.

Sheva Guy: 39:24

I don't know if you follow, if you watch any of Ryan George's videos, either on TikTok or YouTube. Okay, so he does like the first person to ever and I just watched a video because the first person ever own a bird and he's like I put this bird, I put the dude comes. He's like what is this? He goes, this is my friend and I am holding him in captivity. He didn't pass anything, I just caught him, but I, the cage I built him caught. I'll send it to you. I just watched it. That's the biggest. Absolutely I will follow the person, love it, love it, love it. I used to keep chickens, fun fact. So my sister keeps chickens, my sister keeps chickens.

Minessa Konecky: 39:53

And then, oh my God, one day she came out and a chicken had been murdered by some sort of?

Sheva Guy: 39:57

Oh, that happens.

Minessa Konecky: 39:58

Oh, she was very upset. Well, her kid found it was a whole thing and it just happened. You know circle of life and all that and again, growing up in Pakistan we've seen many, many, many chickens die. But her kids, it was new for them so this was like good.

Sheva Guy: 40:10

You got to prepare the kids for that. Yeah, we got them prepared, we ended up. So we we had chickens for a while and we ended up when we started getting licensed for foster care. It was when we ended up bringing and it sounds like I'm bringing them to a farm. No, we actually brought them to a free range farm.

Minessa Konecky: 40:24

Did you take them to the farm to live all the rest of their life?

Sheva Guy: 40:27

No, we really did. Some of them had chicks, which was so cute, so we couldn't have a rooster because we lived in city limits. But so when we started we had to have a home study for foster care and our chicken coop. We don't live in this house now, but our chicken coop was not in Ordinance because it was too close to the property line. But my neighbor didn't care because she was family and she was like, yeah, let's do whatever. So we had to. So you had to do the licensure thing in my house.

Sheva Guy: 40:48

Correct they were, yeah, correct They'd be. Like they have to figure it out, so we had to. You know, I tell my boys like it was 100% worth it to get rid of the chickens, but stop acting like asshole pretains right now. You know what I mean.

Minessa Konecky: 41:03

It's so fun. Yeah, Can you like?

Sheva Guy: 41:05

next. They're always like can we have more chickens? I'm like I'm not dealing with that anymore, if you want to clean it and do all that shit, fine, but I'm not doing it.

Minessa Konecky: 41:11

That's you know it's sort of like, once you've done it, you're like okay, I've done that, I've been there, done that Exactly. It was so great to have you. I love talking about these things, and you know what it's funny, like I was like, oh my God, we only got to like two or three of my questions because we just kept going.

Sheva Guy: 41:24

I know I feel bad. I was like go ahead and hand it.

Minessa Konecky: 41:26

I was like this is what happens when you have two people with ADHD who both know, they have. Adhd and are totally not masking, because I don't mask, you don't mask.

Minessa Konecky: 41:34

I'm just like, let's just do the thing. So I love it. I think it's great and I actually love it when we don't get to any of my questions, because that means our conversation was totally organic as opposed to like I have the questions as a backup. But here's the thing my industry research administration is an industry that is ripe for change management right now, like they're looking for people like you. So I know that there are going to be many people who listen to this who are like oh my God, how do I get in touch with Sheva and work with her? So tell me all the things about how people can find you.

Sheva Guy: 42:03

Yeah, so you can direct them to my LinkedIn. I can give you my website, too, where people can like book time to meet with me, but just like reach out on LinkedIn.

Minessa Konecky: 42:10

I'm there, it's true, it's true, she is there a lot and follow her, connect with her and look at all the stuff that she posts because, honestly, dude, your anti-racism content is spot on. It's solid. I love, love, following you. Thank you so much for being here with us today.

Sheva Guy: 42:24

I really, really appreciate it. Seriously, this is