Ever faced the heartbreak of life's transitions, from divorce to the loss of a parent, and come out on the other side stronger? Faced with my own trials, I dig deep into the raw experiences of navigating challenges while maintaining your internal peace, and staying true to yourself. Come join Judi and I as we go on a journey where we explore the emotional toll of a loss and how writing became a formative part of the healing process.
One of the more poignant segments of the conversation was recognizing the legacy of COVID in our lives and our privacy. As the world evolves post-pandemic, so do our perspectives on personal privacy and boundaries. We often feel like we owe people explanations for our choices - Judi and I delve into the question, "Are we not entitled to our own spaces and freedom from owing explanations?"
CONNECT WITH ME MORE AT:
http://www.stopshoulding.me
https://www.instagram.com/minessa.konecky/
🎵 Thank you to Karacter for allowing me to use Telepathy (2005) in my intro.
This is one of my favorite albums of all time.
👉 Check it out: https://karacter.bandcamp.com/album/karacter
Ever faced the heartbreak of life's transitions, from divorce to the loss of a parent, and come out on the other side stronger? Faced with my own trials, I dig deep into the raw experiences of navigating challenges while maintaining your internal peace, and staying true to yourself. Come join Judi and I as we go on a journey where we explore the emotional toll of a loss and how writing became a formative part of the healing process.
One of the more poignant segments of the conversation was recognizing the legacy of COVID in our lives and our privacy. As the world evolves post-pandemic, so do our perspectives on personal privacy and boundaries. We often feel like we owe people explanations for our choices - Judi and I delve into the question, "Are we not entitled to our own spaces and freedom from owing explanations?"
CONNECT WITH ME MORE AT:
http://www.stopshoulding.me
https://www.instagram.com/minessa.konecky/
🎵 Thank you to Karacter for allowing me to use Telepathy (2005) in my intro.
This is one of my favorite albums of all time.
👉 Check it out: https://karacter.bandcamp.com/album/karacter
I think there's something for which I'm like, okay, the price that I'm going to pay is inconvenience. And then other things. It's like the price I'll pay is money, but I'll get the convenience. And then, like you just you weigh it each time Sometimes I'm like, oh my God, I will totally pay for this, literally.
Speaker 2:And I never kind of free-forming at the moment. I'm not saying I want this case to be.
Speaker 1:No, let's do it, I like free-forming, like I really actually, as I started recording now with my patent because it gave me a lot of bad feedback.
Speaker 2:So my attorney's office a couple of days ago signing some paperwork. I have a real estate transaction closing on Monday related to the divorce.
Speaker 1:Wow, congratulations on closing on that.
Speaker 2:Thank you. And there's a whole long story behind that I'm going to bore you with, but suffice to say the was-bent needs to sign his portion of paperwork. He hadn't been to the attorney yet and he's scheduled to go today. So I was there on Wednesday. They're like oh, so was-bent. They're like I'm going to be in the office to call some was-bent, which is great, I love it. I love it. And they said so was-bent is scheduled to come in on Friday at 3. I said well, we'll realize that's the absolute last minute because we closed at Monday at 9. Oh Jesus, I said so I strongly recommend calling him today to remind him. And they looked at me. They were like oh, do you want us to call him? Like, and this is when you know you have a good attorney, or when they don't want to bill you for something right? So do you want us to call him? And I said I will gladly pay a billable for you to call him.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, absolutely I said, the reason we are at this impasse is that he won't listen to me. So that's like 97% of the value you bring to my life at this juncture is that he can't argue with you. He will argue with me. So I'm like please, don't ever hesitate If you have to remind him about anything. Please, I will never, ever, ever debate a billable like that, ever, ever, oh, because they also know it's a paralegal. So they're probably like I'm like no.
Speaker 1:Like this is what I'm actually paying you for, like there's what we put in the contract. Do you have a contract?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's fine. Like this is not. I'm not, you know, I don't mean this in a way of maligning him, that's. I try very hard not to do that. Like he's a good person. We're just not a good couple. Like the RSE is done and we're going to move on with our lives. We're still always be connected because we have children together. That's fine. But like good for someone else, not for me anymore, right, it's it. I'm like please, not come, please, please. I will gladly pay a billable.
Speaker 1:The bills of the checks in the mail, right, right, well, I am glad that that is being taken care of. So once that's done, then that's. You're free from that.
Speaker 2:I'm free from that portion of my time but there's still other things. But that's fine, it's all process and we have a pretrial date in October.
Speaker 1:And whatever it is, it may be great fodder for the books. Right, that's what it comes down to. Is life.
Speaker 2:It's funny that you should say that, because I get a lot of pushback from people Like what's the next book, how's the next book coming? And I'm like, yeah, it's really not slog, and I'm not really sure if I want to do a sequel to fuckery just yet.
Speaker 1:How many are meant to stand?
Speaker 2:on their own, just yet at minimum at all, at maximum, like I'm just not sure, because there's just been an interesting revelation to me, like in writing, fuckery, and hearing the feedback from people. Like it is meant to be a humorous take on a painful it happened in a painful chapter of my life, but it was meant to give me solace and perspective that two decades plus were not for, not Right.
Speaker 1:It's almost like, it's really like. It's like healing. You know, it seems like in here.
Speaker 2:It's very therapeutic to write this book, very therapeutic.
Speaker 1:Which makes sense because, like so then, whatever your next book is, you're in a different phase you'll be in a different phase. Like it's not necessarily going to be the same type of book because you're not the same person you were for the last 20 years.
Speaker 2:No, not at all. I'm a completely different person. I even was like a year ago, Right, it's just. You know, especially the other big. You know, I'm not sure if I lost my mom last summer.
Speaker 1:Oh, dude, I'm so sorry, that is the point.
Speaker 2:It will be a year on June 30th. It's like a week from today, Right? So you know, I'm not sure if you have both your parents still.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Okay, so that year of firsts after the first year is the hardest.
Speaker 1:The first year is after the hardest the year of firsts is what's the hardest.
Speaker 2:It was a really interesting time for me because I was lucky and she was 88. I had her for 53 years. It's a really good long time to have your mom Right. But what's interesting is because I lost my dad so young and I lived without him more of my life than I had him. Yeah, that somehow I thought, oh, it won't be so bad. Oh, oh, it won't be so bad because I've lost a parent, so I know what this is like.
Speaker 1:But it's the first time You've been through it before.
Speaker 2:I was a very different person. I'm 53. Then I was a 17, quite obviously, yeah, Absolutely Right. Like how naive, right. But that's grief, that's like pre-grief right, you know it's coming. So you're like I'm going to brace myself. Nothing can prepare you for this. We're so naive in these ways, right? We think, oh well, because I did this before, I'll be all right, I'll be. And I was largely relieved for her because her end was not pleasant. It was very painful. She had dementia, she had a lot of physical ailments. She'd been bedridden for the last five or six months of her life. It was really tough to witness. So I felt largely relieved because she wasn't suffering. But many mother-daughter relationships ours was complicated.
Speaker 1:Mine was like that too, right. So you know you miss something there. That was hard about the relief. You know, like, there's like and there's a guilt attached to that relief. There's a guilt attached to that relief, right.
Speaker 2:Right, and then you go back. I'm not happy about this, but also because she had dementia, you lose them twice. Yeah Right, so she. There were days that I'd go in and she thought I was my daughter, she thought my older daughter was me, but then she'd have these moments of clarity and she realized it was me. And then she somehow remembered that I'm in the middle of divorcing the husband whom she adores, right, and she said don't for me.
Speaker 1:And I'm like okay, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go bye, yeah, Bye, Bye. You know what, though? I think? The thing that is you know that is true is that I think once and that once you lost your parents, though like they no longer control any part of that relationship, and so now it's like it's really about I'm going to therapy, to figure out where this fits in my life.
Speaker 1:And I'm gonna put it like you know. I think for so many years, when I was still engaging with my dad, I would go to therapy and solve all these problems and then, like he would come in and then just fuck everything up and I'd be like, well, okay, now I have to go back to therapy and they find a whole new way they say all of you are getting help.
Speaker 2:And then they come in with some. They come in the side doors. Quote the rabbit out of the hat trick. You know it was like all of a sudden boom, here's some new fuckery.
Speaker 1:Exactly. I was like why don't you do all this after I go back to therapy?
Speaker 2:Oh God, yeah, but there was that. But I mean for her physical being, for her own essence. I felt relieved for her and I didn't feel all that much guilt about it. But I did hear myself say to people I mean, chris, I miss her, she's gone and she's my mom, right, but I'm relieved that she's no longer suffering, right, of course, and people will kind of be like cause, we're not supposed to say things like that about our moms. Moms are supposed to be weird and put on a pedestal, which of course we all know is the root of misogyny, right when we're-.
Speaker 1:You might as well take the podcast in this direction, because I'm loving this conversation.
Speaker 2:We can totally take. What about?
Speaker 1:direction this goes at. I want to just keep this going, cause I feel like this is such a powerful thing you're talking about in terms of how we deal with grief, death, our mothers like-.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's something about this that's so interesting to me because it means so forefront of my mind. So thank you for being flexible in this, and it's gonna be a year next week. I can't believe that it's gonna be a year, and cause I remember the first few weeks, and she died right before the fourth of July weekend which, incidentally, my family tends to die around the holiday and my dad died right before Veterans Day, so there's always like some holiday weekend.
Speaker 2:I think it's like we're just like we're just like the same things and I'm just like. But I remember those first few weeks. I felt like I was walking through time and it was like pea soup. Everything was just like a slug, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so and the brain fog.
Speaker 2:It's like the brain fog was so bad and I was so physically exhausted. I don't remember being this tired, being that tired since my kids were newborns, you know. So I was like napping twice a day, like I'm fucking like a toddler, you know. And I remember thinking it was so hard, I can't even imagine there, I can't even imagine it being a year from now, Like I can't even imagine that time's gonna continue. Not that I had some kind of self-harming thought or anything. It just felt like time was never gonna move on from this.
Speaker 1:You know what it is. It's almost like I didn't understand the cognitive dissonance, like there was a world that didn't have my mom in it.
Speaker 2:That was what was weird, is like I don't understand.
Speaker 1:Like I don't get it and I think it's the shock portion of it, where you're literally just like what is happening here.
Speaker 2:But it was so interesting for us too because she her decline really started in COVID. She was a very active person, out walked several miles a day. She lived next to one of my brother. They were out doing things all the time. And then COVID of course we all welcome to the great indoors, right, and then we were all separated from one another and that's when my husband and I split up. But I didn't tell my mom about it until after we were vaccinated. So I lived this life with her for like almost nine months, wow. And we finally got together in person and I can't believe I managed to like pull this thing off and her not figure it out. But there was a lot of plausible tonight ability. She was like, oh, it's so quiet at your house, it's going on. I'm like oh, everybody's out?
Speaker 1:Not a lot. I'm sure, though, that when you said something that she always loved him and was like, and I what we use.
Speaker 2:That's interesting is that I part of my dread of telling her this is not even like Catholic guilt. My mom was a Catholic mother.
Speaker 2:Hall of famer, I mean said the rosary every day, mass at 8 AM like super devout Catholic. Right I was sitting at lunch and my brother, who knew what was going on he'd been a great partner in crime, as it were and she's like I'm so happy to see you it was just a couple of days before my birthday. She's like I'm so happy to see you, jude, and he looks so good and so happy to celebrate your birthday together and we both got vaccinated so close together and I'm so happy that we can do this. And me too, me too. She goes what's going on? How are you? I said, yeah, there's no easy way to tell you this, so I'm just gonna tell you this.
Speaker 2:And she looked at me and I think she thought I was gonna tell her I had cancer, right, and I said Mick and I are separated, we're going to get divorced. And she was like what? And I said yes. I said I feel terrible that I didn't tell you this sooner, but I didn't think it was a phone conversation. I wanted to give you the respect, to tell me you face to face. And I said it was never one thing, mom, but I can tell you that we eventually just started to bring out the worst in each other, and now we've decided the work in a part ways. And she said what about the kids? And I said well, that's complicated too, because right now I'm living in Medford, they're living with him and in their new house they've moved to another town. I said, and right now they've chosen not to speak with me at the moment. And she was like, oh my god, and I thought for sure the next words out of her mouth were going to be what did you do?
Speaker 1:Oh God, well you know. I gotta tell you like what is like that says something right there, like when, like we are conditioned to a space cause, like that was honestly what I would expect to hear as well. Like what did you?
Speaker 2:do you?
Speaker 1:know to drive him away. What did you do?
Speaker 2:Well, I said there was nothing spacious here. This was just the human nature. Like there's no one thing, right. It's accumulation of a lot of little things. It's like definitely that wasn't tiny cuts, right? Can I ask you a question? Like we're talking, about this.
Speaker 1:Can I ask you a question? Because, as we're talking about this, and sort of like.
Speaker 2:And we are talking, you know, sort of like, not shooting all over ourselves about these things.
Speaker 1:I'm curious that and feel free, you know, I know this is kind of a personal question but when you were going through this process were you, did it ever come into your mind that well?
Speaker 2:we can't do this, because what will people think? Or will my mother think? Or will this like did?
Speaker 1:or what the expectations that people had of you your marriage or life, the things that you were supposed to be or do did that and how did that impact you?
Speaker 2:I think it was definitely like oh my God, how am I going to explain this? Mm-hmm, right, but it's going to sound so weird, but it's so true. I remember having this thought very often. I said this is the blessing of COVID is that nobody knows where you are or what you're doing. Everyone just thinks you're home, right. So you could like, if you saw people on Zoom, you saw them on Zoom, you have a different background or whatever. But I didn't talk to a lot of my friends on Zoom and I was mostly texting with people. It was a very small group of friends who knew the real deal and I said this is not for public consumption. I'll let you know when it is. Right now I'm just working through it.
Speaker 2:And then eventually I got to a point where the world started to open up again, like that early summer, and I started to be out and about and people would be like, oh hey, how's Mick and the kids? I said yeah. So Mick and I split up and they were like, oh, I didn't know. I said, well, there wasn't a press release and there's actually not going to be a Q&A, and that was my policy. Was that if I hadn't? It was really a delineator for me, like if I didn't think to reach out to you in COVID to tell you this news, then it wasn't really something that I felt like I needed to then explain later, because as time goes on, the story gets longer, right, and then you tell people very soon and then it's like a continuing update.
Speaker 1:Right, if this happened and then that happened and we sold the house or whatever things started to happen.
Speaker 2:It didn't happen. And then people will ask oh so what's going on now? What's going on now? And I'm like it's moving along. So now it's like it's amazing how we suddenly now compress the story right and we're like I didn't even know you guys split up. I said, yeah, it really wasn't something that we felt the need to announce publicly. It was a private matter and we were also living through really extraordinary times as a society as a whole. Everyone on planet Earth was indoors. So there's no good time for this and there's no good hallmark card for this. And people say I'm sorry and I'm like thank you. Then I quickly follow it with it's congratulations more than condolences. But I understand where you're coming from, why people say they're sorry.
Speaker 1:You know, I think one of there's two things that you said that I think are super powerful there. I think the first is is that we are all conditioned to think that we owe somebody. An explanation right that we owe people an explanation.
Speaker 2:The most radical act is to stop explaining yourself, right.
Speaker 1:Which is another form of shooting all over yourself.
Speaker 2:Right, stop explaining yourself. You don't have to explain yourself.
Speaker 1:I love the answer of like no, you know, like it's so short, like I love the one of we missed the we didn't send out a press release, right. And like I love that because people laugh, but then like it moves on into like something else, like it's a kind of where it's like, honestly, if I didn't tell you, then you didn't need to know in that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there was some people who were like I can't believe you didn't call me and tell me I would have been a confidant for you and I'm like the fact that I didn't call you probably tells you like how our relationship is right, like you are not a confidant for me.
Speaker 2:You're not a confidant for me, like, I love that you want to offer that kind of support to me, but I have learned that sometimes support feels more like an interrogation and I just didn't feel like answering and never ending list of questions, so I just said no. No, A group of people, right?
Speaker 1:Cause you've got one person, then another person, then another person, and now you're just kind of living in that space and we were talking about this earlier on. You know about your book and like what your next book would be and whatnot, right, and I think that, like that goes back to you know as how we change as people. So, like now we're like you know we're a year or so out. Things have happened, you know, you're such a different person now than you know, like a year ago.
Speaker 1:And it's like and I think that like some, and if you think about the fact that you started having these conversations with people nine months later, you were already evolving as a person, You'd moved on from this right.
Speaker 2:So I was shocked and like it was, too fine.
Speaker 1:It's totally fine, but then.
Speaker 2:But then there was I'm not going to lie, there was a point too where there were some friends who were also in their own pods of fuckery, right. So they're dealing with like teenagers who were like having emotional, social, emotional issues or just like life in a parents who were ill, like all the. It was like that, I want to say, it was like last summer. I felt like it was the real emergence of people. You know, I'm not saying that we, everyone has their own thing about how they handle COVID, right, I'm not going to get into that.
Speaker 1:But I do agree with you that now, like you know, we're we're entering back into quote, unquote, real life.
Speaker 2:We're back, we're back to you know, this is what we're now calling the new normal.
Speaker 1:But whatever, so I called the reemergence, so that's my I like that term the reemergence of the now.
Speaker 2:It was like I was at a 50th birthday party for a friend and there was a bunch of people I hadn't seen literally since before the pandemic, right. And someone said I noticed that you went back to using Harrington. My married name was McLaughlin. I said yes. I said you may or may not know, make a nice split up in the early, in early quarantine. I said it was time. And it's a long, long story, as they all are. Every story is complicated. I'll spare you the details, but suffice to say we had a good run and it's amicable as best we can be and that's really it. But then I'd say things oh well, now I have a boyfriend and people love what. So sometimes, like the shock factor, depending on who it was, I would be like oh yeah, and I'm seeing somebody, what you know. And so what I'm going to say to me? You actually won quarantine because you didn't have to deal with teenagers. If you're a teenage husband, if you're a real girl, you're living like every mom's fantasy right now.
Speaker 1:I was gonna say that that sounds like a sweet quarantine right there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and in some ways yes, but in other ways, not so much, but my price of admission was steep.
Speaker 1:That's a really high price of admission, dude. Like I feel like that's a yeah.
Speaker 2:Deep. Being estranged from your children is a steep price to pay. It's a really steep price to pay. I mean, and you know I mean, we've shown you I have no, so much so I don't For the listeners out there. I mean. I think we've moved in this embedded direction in terms of the kids' relationship. My older daughter came back to me, as I like to say, in 20, what year are we in? I don't know what day it is.
Speaker 1:I know. I was just gonna say please don't ask me what year we're actually in. We're 2023.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it was 2022. So it was March of 2022. It's like a year ago, it's like a year ago and she came back to me, interestingly enough, the day after I submitted my completed manuscript to Copy Editing.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, that's like two really big days Like two huge, huge days, right.
Speaker 2:Like I released this out, I'm like, okay, I've said all I'm gonna say in this book. I handed over to the Copy Editors and I'm breathing this sigh of relief. I'm also feeling like I forgot my homework somewhere, like that dream where you suddenly discover that you have like a 27-page paper due.
Speaker 1:And you haven't done anything.
Speaker 2:Or class. You never went to whatever. They had that kind of feeling. But then the next day and this is just teenagers for you she called. I answered the phone. She's like hi, do you have a minute, or am I guy? And I said I absolutely do. What can I help you with? And she needed help with. She has a 529 plan. I needed some help moving the response amount and paying off a tuition bill and all that stuff. And I said I'm happy to help you. And so we did that little administrative thing. And then I said how is school, how are you? Kind of small talk, small talk. And then all of a sudden I heard this little voice go how are you? Yeah, and I said I'm good. I said I'm not going to lie, I miss you and your sibling.
Speaker 2:I'm just sitting here writing for some companies. I'm still doing that. I'm looking as a copywriter. But I actually just finished writing a book. She gave her a book. I said yeah, I did PS, you're in it. And she started laughing. I said I can assure you that there is no story in this book that you haven't heard me say and talk about at the kitchen table. And she said OK, and I said it's funny, did she?
Speaker 1:get to read the book before it was published.
Speaker 2:She did not read it before it was published, but she has since read it and she says she's just so happy that I wrote this book. She's like I love that you wrote this book and you chose these stories. And it reminds me of so many things. How much love we grew up with. Because that's the scary thing.
Speaker 1:That's super.
Speaker 2:About your own kids.
Speaker 1:That's key, right, because you wrote it to say the 20 years weren't a waste, that it was something that you. It's a reminder, because it's so easy when you're at the end of something to really forget how much you did together and you're talking about like I don't want to laugh.
Speaker 2:So he's a funny guy. He's finding a way that a lot of people don't expect him to be funny and we had a really good run. I always said we had a great run. We were meant to stay together, like that's OK, right?
Speaker 1:I think that was the kids, to sort of see that too. But I want to go back to the mother-daughter thing, because you said this is teenagers. But I was also thinking this goes back to like mother-daughter relationships are so freaking complicated Like they are. Like there is love, there's anger, there's rage, there's so much that's in there.
Speaker 2:There's happiness, resentment, I'm like you have a way better life than me and I'm actually kind of jealous of you for the things that I actually gave you. And then you have to like check yourself with that right, and then on the other side of it I always say that that generational divide right, like when you're at this, on the younger end of this spectrum, you think, oh my god, you people don't understand anything. You've got the olds right, whatever the term is now right.
Speaker 2:I remember the older folks, the olds right and in my parents, were also non-traditional and they were in their mid to late 30s when they had us in the 60s and 70s. Oh so my parents were the oldest parents saved one other friend of mine whose parents were just slightly older than mine, but our parents were also. They were depression era kids. They were very old-fashioned, they were very conservative, right. But now I see there was certain wisdom in things that they taught us right. But now I'm like on the other side of it and my kids are teaching me things that are uncomfortable, I don't always understand, but I just choose to accept because they're my children, right, and I love them no matter what right. And my kids have been on the gender journey and I don't mean that in any derogatory way.
Speaker 1:The gender journey is a journey dude, it is like.
Speaker 2:Right and. But as, like a cisgender female, I feel like there's also. I also live in perpetual fear that I'm turning into a female archie bunker because I was raised by archie bunkers, so like, I'm always very mindful of my language around this. But like my kids have come to me. You know in the story in the book part-time lesbian when my old friend came to me I'm a lesbian. I love you, no matter who you love. Three months later I have a boyfriend. I love you, no matter who you love. Right, I think I'm a lesbian, I love you, no matter who you love. Like, seriously, the message doesn't change.
Speaker 1:Right, it's just I love you no matter what, just do the. I love you no matter what. And then, it came.
Speaker 2:I identify as non-binary and these are my pronouns. That's great. I love you, no matter who you love. I'm changing my name. I love you, no matter what you call yourself. What pronouns do you want to use? Now, we're going to have to extend it a little bit, but you're my kid. Like that's my job.
Speaker 1:Is your daughter actually? Does your child use they them pronouns?
Speaker 2:My younger one uses they them, my older one uses she her. So she's been around the block. I guess a little bit about it and I think she how she identifies. She'll say she'll say she's cisgender but she bisexual, so she thinks men and women and Mike is like as long as this consensual and I was getting hurt, that's fine.
Speaker 1:I mean really, those are key elements of like a relationship you know it's like.
Speaker 2:those are the important stuff Consent.
Speaker 1:You know, you know that kind of thing. You know, I actually really love that you brought this up, because I think that so I personally.
Speaker 2:So when I was 11, I came out as a boy, to everybody around me and nobody believed me, but it was just like 1988.
Speaker 1:So like they were like you're a tomboy, and I was like no, that's not it. And I, as I grew up, and then, of course, eventually I realized I was gender fluid and you know obviously all these things that I learned. But at that stage where we were, because you and I are close to the same age, this point locked off Right. It kind of just I said, ok, well then, I guess I'm a girl, this is what it is Right, and it is because that's what everybody said.
Speaker 2:So I mean, some society knows better than I do.
Speaker 1:Of course they do so. Now, as an older person watching kids like your daughter and your other child, that is what has taught me, and it gave me the language to then, like some of these boxes, started to open and I started to revisit them and start to like be like now I have language for things I didn't have language for.
Speaker 1:But what I was finding is that our generation of women struggles because we, we have the philosophy. Almost every I've not yet met a woman who hasn't been totally open loving and willing and just like yeah.
Speaker 2:So what do I call you? How do I do?
Speaker 1:it. Tell me what to do Right. The issue always comes, I think, in the fact that we are of a certain age and we're now having to relearn some things, and we're still doing it wrong.
Speaker 2:There's some unlearning and relearning Right.
Speaker 1:And nobody minds doing it. But we're worried about doing it wrong and accidentally hurting somebody.
Speaker 2:And so, like Renee Brown says, I don't want to be right, it's not about being right, it's about getting it right.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and so I love that you told this story, and I would actually be curious to know from you how did you navigate this as someone who is now learning these things, you know, with your kids? And now you're like OK, I'm trying to figure out how to make sure that I'm not like, I mean, my younger one came back to me in early April and we've been in kind of sporadic contact.
Speaker 2:She's a little different. She's a different person than her sister, right, because we are the one who stays at that pronouns, we are the younger ones to stay them and I was very mindful when we were on the phone I said I just want to make sure I'm getting it right. Like, what pronouns would you do you want to use and say them? And I think she's OK as well. But I'm like, ok, I'm going to use they, them, because at least I'll just stick with it. Right Default?
Speaker 2:to they them Default to they them Right. And of course I've also gone on my linguistic rant that singular they dates back to the time of Chaucer, so this is like a reemergence of that. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you, because that's always the first thing everyone says is plural and I'm like no, it's not.
Speaker 1:I was like it is, it's not new.
Speaker 2:It's a reintroduction into into the lexicon, but that's the story for another day. I guess the whole other podcast altogether.
Speaker 1:But God, absolutely. We'll do an English language podcast about pronouns.
Speaker 2:That would be awesome. But so at that time they were in a relationship and it was. It was a polyamorous Relationship. And so they said to me I get this like is complicated and like maybe you don't understand it. I said you're right, I don't, I'm like, but it's not for me to understand. I said again as long as every, every, everyone can sense and no one's getting hurt, then that's what matters, and those are the things that you need to always keep in mind, regardless of the you know tapestry of the relationship. And and to me that felt like a good, like I felt good, saying that yeah, and it landed well, and that's what made me feel even better about it.
Speaker 2:I was like I'm not going to, I it's not my job to understand it. Like I was taking my kids. They used to say this to me all the time You're straight as fuck, I'm like. I know, I know I am like. I'm straight as fuck, you're not, that's okay, we can all coexist Like it's fine, right. And their dad's still like I'm not really sure, I'm like. It doesn't matter what we think.
Speaker 1:It's our job to Right, that's the best. It doesn't matter what we think it's our job?
Speaker 2:It's actually none of our business. Yes, oh my God, it's actually none of our business. Like, okay, do I like to think about my kids having sex? Absolutely not.
Speaker 1:I like to know what I'm having sex.
Speaker 1:Right, but like I think, that's just human nature, it's like it's like it doesn't matter who your child is sleeping with. You don't want to know, you don't want to think about it. No, you don't want to think about you having sex either. Oh my God, I was at a conference meeting the other day and one of the person people who was talking about how her like she's totally open, she's just like she's blunt right, and so she's having dinner with her kids and her husband there. She's about 70 or 60. And you know, so her kids are like I don't know if they're like 23. Mom, do you have sex with dad? And she's like yep, all the time. And then it just went on and I was like I can only imagine what that moment was like at the table.
Speaker 2:You know, like I'm like.
Speaker 1:I love her Just as she was like yep, yeah, but.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:So in writing she's like I was worried that like she was imagining positions and this and really they're just like oh, I think parents have sex, you know, and it's like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just kind of like it actually just lives like a sentence in my head. That's really all it lives as Like I'm not thinking anything beyond. It's just you know exactly.
Speaker 1:That's exactly how I feel it. We all try to do with various people in our lives. We're like I don't want to think about that.
Speaker 2:I joke all the time. I don't want to know what I'm having it, never mind hearing about anybody else.
Speaker 1:No, but oh my God, that's so funny, but, and that's just that's just to say, like that's your business. Like I don't. That, ultimately, is what it is, and I think that the point that I, which I really like and I didn't, I honestly, when we, and because I've been talking forever and I would like- I was like, oh my God, we have to actually end up with 11, which is honestly great timing. But I you know we were going to talk first.
Speaker 2:I don't want to. I do not want to miss an opportunity to say this, and this is I mean, this is Judy Harrington, everybody.
Speaker 1:Welcome and to the podcast. It's very end. She wrote a book called Fuckery and it's a great book, so you really need to buy it. All the people that we've been talking about today are in this book, and you'll get to know them really well.
Speaker 1:But I think that, like you know, the mic drop moment there've been a lot of really good ones from this podcast, but I think one of the really big ones is that I think we all really need to be very mindful about what is and isn't our business. That's really, I think, like, as you say, that it's like I think we need to.
Speaker 2:really that is kind of the overarching theme here, isn't it? It really is.
Speaker 1:Because even the first conversation, the first sentence that we talked about, was people asking you about your divorce and whether or not it's their business. So I think I might call this podcast it's Not your Business with.
Speaker 2:Judy Harrington. It's.
Speaker 1:Not your Business, it's Not.
Speaker 2:Your Business with Judy Harrington. I'll take another graphic, which is fine, because I'm going to change it. The irony is that this book is like me telling it my life story, but now I'm going to say it. It's really creative.
Speaker 1:I'll tell them that before that, they should watch the podcast and then read the book. Or, if you want to really do it, read the book and then watch the podcast, then watch the podcast. Sorry, judy, I'm so excited to have you on today when people want to buy your book. Oh, actually, judy is also, by the way, a writing coach and can help you get your book published. So I know I'm throwing this in at the end, but I want to make sure that everybody knows about it because they're so awesome, they love you.
Speaker 1:They're going to read the book and they'll be like how do I find Judy, we're going to have to do another one of these, or we actually talk about the book.
Speaker 2:We actually talk about the book.
Speaker 1:We talk about the book, but for now and I actually want to do a podcast about the Booking- Cheabater thing, because I feel like that's also a lot of fun.
Speaker 2:But basically so I'm a copywriter.
Speaker 1:Copywriter tell us all the things.
Speaker 2:Tell us everything you do. I'm a writing coach and all of my stuff lives at Judy411.com J-U-D-I-411.com. If you want to know how I got that name, read the book Read the book it's in here.
Speaker 1:It's actually great.
Speaker 2:Some random person asked you about something at Fang of Hall, right? I remember that, yes, random person, and everybody asked her things.
Speaker 1:So you know what I remember that I read that when you're done reading it, just send her a email and ask her random questions. Go to a woman right here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it's available at Amazon, farrington, noble and Bookshoporg and I strongly encourage people to purchase the Bookshop wherever possible, because you are supporting independent bookstores as opposed to the big app.
Speaker 1:So Please do that, and if you are in Plymouth, I believe it is being carried at Books and Sundries so you could also get a copy there where Judy's been book writing. All right, judy, thank you so much. All right, I'll see you next time.